Fully Body vs P/P/L does it matter at all?

[peterjames]

I'm doing a full body routine 3 times a week for quite some time now and I'm making pretty good progress with that. But lately my stamina becomes more and more of a limiting factor so I was wondering if I should switch to a P/P/L routine which should help in that regard.

I also read that you should go close to failure but don't need to go to complete failure as you would need way longer to regenerate while the benefit isn't that big. That wouldn't be a problem anymore with P/P/L.

A pro for the full body routine might be the more frequent training of each muscle and thus more optimal use of the actual time frame of protein synthesis.

But then there's also volume. The studies say 12-18 sets per muscle group would be optimal as far as I know.

Let's keep it simple with the muscle groups, as I am doing mostly compound lifts which you could break down to pull exercises (biceps and posterior chain), push exercises (chest, triceps and shoulders) and leg exercises. I actually do isolation exercises but quite balanced for different muscles so let's ignore that to prevent this from getting longer than it already is.

In my routine I'm doing 2 pull, 2 push and 2 leg exercises for 3 sets each 3 times a week resulting in 18 sets per muscle group.

If I would do a P/P/L 3 times a week with 6 exercises for 3 sets in each workout, I would have the same volume.

I did upper/lower before, but I had less upper body volume with it and the full body routine was working way better for me. I'm not planning to train more often than 3 times a week, as I feel like that's fitting my lifestyle and goals pretty well.

So considering the points above, does it actually matter which routine I'd follow or should I just choose the one I like better? Is 1 training per muscle group a week insufficient? Is the full body workout too taxing on my stamina? What do you think?

 

[jess1]

@peterjames I’ve done P/P/L averaging 4-4.5 days a week for years. I’ve been doing 3 days a week P/P/L for for a while now as I wanted to focus a bit more on the barbell lifts at the start of the session without changing my program too much. I might add an arm day at some point.

I’m happy with the progress so far. If I asked Reddit I would have been told not to do P/P/L if I’m only training three days a week. Don’t ask Reddit. Try things out and you’ll then know if it works or not. A lot of things work that people say won’t work.

 

[angel_heart]

@jess1 The “ don’t ask Reddit “ was spot on . I don’t frequent this forum much but it’s such a repeat of optimal, this study, that study, every 48 protein synthesis, full body only etc lol. So glad I learned lifting techniques back in the early early 90’s from the “ real science guys “ the consistent gym veterans of the iron and not some 6 week study that was conducted from the North Pole then that’s rehashed on a forum as “ the way “.

 

[jess1]

@angel_heart People seem afraid of trying something for at least 6-8 weeks. It’s not like you’ll lose your gains in that time and you’ll learn from it.

I’m so glad forums weren’t as big as they are now and there was less information. I only paid attention to top coaches and other advanced people. I didn’t care what random people on the internet thought.

 

[angel_heart]

@jess1 O the forums in the late 90’s to early 2k’s. Cyberpump, musclemayhem, intensemuscle, wannabebig, abcbodybuilding. Musclemayhem was definitely the most legit with some great info especially from Dante trudel. The old days, lol

 

[leongleong94]

@peterjames No it doesn't matter. Sure, you could argue back and forth that "when volume is equated split doesn't matter" or "full body allows for maximal protein synthesis" but at the end of the day what keeps you consistent and training with intensity will be the most optimal thing for you. You said it yourself: fatigue towards the end of the session is ruining the quality of them. As long as your training with high intensity and accuracy on all of your movements, you'll get really good results. Otherwise, certain muscle groups will begin to suffer. Try the 3 day PPL and see if it works for you - just remember you'll never be satisfied with your rate of muscle growth so just make sure you're progressing your lifts.

As for volume, 12-18 sets is very high and will only really be necessary if you're training far from failure - a lot of the literature doesn't account for longer rest periods and training really hard. You should aim for 3-6 per session training fully to failure to start off with and you can always adjust to your needs from there.

Hope that helps.

 

[dragonfruit10]

@peterjames Exercise science flip flops all the time, 12-18 is a little high and having weekly volume isn't really a good way to look at it anyhow.

Full body can be great but it takes a lot more care to program correctly and manage fatigue. I really don't like this split personally. I find it harder to put in the effort trying to do things like Legs, Back, Chest all in the same day. I also like to have a lot of variation which you can do on Full Body it's just a bit more limiting.

does it actually matter which routine I'd follow or should I just choose the one I like better?

It 100% does not matter and yes, do the one you would enjoy most. And then find a way to make it work. This sub is generally pretty good if you post a split setup for feedback.

Is 1 training per muscle group a week insufficient?

Not necessarily. You'll find as people get more experienced most lifters will be hitting muscle groups 2x a week, not because of some dodgy science just because practically it seems to be the most efficient and allows a good mix of frequency, recovery and prioritisation.

 

[troy4you]

@peterjames Don't be afraid to try something new, especially if you've already gotten your noob gains/hit intermediate lifts. But since you probably came here for advice and personal anecdotes, I always find myself going back to full body. It works and I enjoy the increased frequency. This might vary from person to person, but for me personally I think frequency has benefited me much more than increased volume in place of frequency. I know you said volume would be equated between the two but everytime I've tried something else for a while I really just didn't feel like giving up the frequency made sense. I also just enjoy full body so I'm not gonna change until I see a reason. Maybe try upper/lower? I actually liked upper/lower better than when I tried PPL. But again, I always end up back to a full-body routine.

 

[justincann]

@peterjames Most people don't refer to PPL as a 3 day, its a 6 or occasionally a 5 with the 2nd push/pull condensing into an upper day.

What you'd be doing is a modified 3 day bro split.

In general for beginners and intermediates, as long as you aren't hitting "junk volume" in individual workout, all workout frequencies and splits are roughly equal in progress as long as total volume and intensity is equalized. The kicker here is higher frequency splits generally allow for more way more volume as the muscles recover. In a bro split with a chest day, at around set 12-14 sets of chest exercises I'm going into "junk volume" territory with everything being around 2 reps in reserve. In a twice a week split I can hit....well about 10 sets on one upper day and 10 on the next. In a 3 times a week split I can hit 8-10 on each of the three days. See where I'm getting at. That's not to say bro-splits don't work but you have to keep in mind some of these things. And you can frequently get around the frequency problem with smart exercise choice. When I mix it up with a bro split, my arm days begin with close grip bench for example.

2nd, as a rule count, exercises for the prime mover. Yes you use some biceps in a pullup. But the muscle that's going to fail and stop the exercise is going to be the back. One of the main corresponding things we know is muscles grow with relative intensity and targeted intensity. And simply, put if you think of triceps as being a part of bench press...you're triceps aren't getting enough approaches to intensity to really grow well sans anything else. Bench is a chest exercise. (note i say approaches to intensity. This means anywhere from 4 or so reps in the tank to 0)

 

[peterjames]

@justincann But wouldn't that mean if I'm going for dips, benchpress, shoulderpress, flys and lateral raises on a push day it would hardly be possible to reach real junk volume? As long as I choose weights I can move it wouldn't become to much for a single muscle group because the compound movements are not that taxing on every muscle group at once?

 

[justincann]

@peterjames I mean yeah if you did 3-4 sets of each of those that be fine and they don't hit all the same muscles. But I'm saying the problem is the opposite. That's good for a single push day for like a PPLPPL split. But you'd be at pretty low weekly volume if that's your only push day doing those movements. You can kind of make up for low weekly volume by just going balls the wall harder or doing way more sets. But doing it all on a single push day runs into the junk volumes problems (both types: the hitting a certain muscle groups too hard and the marathon workout junk volume where you're too gassed).

If you're time crunched and can only do 3 days a week, it'd be better to do a full body split and just go harder to make up for some lack of volume problems.

 

[peterjames]

@justincann But right now I'm struggling with going from chin ups to dips, to squats, to row, to benchpress and to deadlift. It's so hard on my stamina that stuff like bicep curls feel like having a break

 

[justincann]

@peterjames Gotcha. Yeah I mean I think you're in the realm of basically accepting trade offs for only a 3 day split. Full body days gas you. Doing it as like a 3 day PPL is going to run into either over-hammering a certain muscle group on a single day or being a bit light on volume over the week. Basically you got to pick a trade off between those 3 options.

FYI I do have 3 day full body splits occasionally for life getting busy/emphasizing cardio. You might be basically falling into a problem I did early on of doing nothing but free weight /big compound movements. Because, hey best bang for your buck right? They all use a lot of muscle groups, neural drive and core to stabilize it all. All of which gas you. A Lot. If you keep doing full body, you might have to start considering being smart with using machines and isolations which will manage the fatigue. Like I'll structure my 3 day splits as having "showcase movement" for one big exercise of the day and then slowly drop down to easier variations, machines and then isolations. So Monday might look like

• **Bench*\*
• RDL(slightly less taxing, slightly more isolation-y than a comp-style Deadlift)
• Lat pulldown machine (less fatiguing machine movement)
• Leg ext (much less fatiguing quad isolation)
• Lat raise isolation / Bicep isolation, etc

And then Wed Squat is my showcase, but the upper is a little more isolation and machine driven, etc. Essentially this is "smart" power-building. Like 5/3/1 straight up tells you structure your program this way.

 

[gofthesearching]

@justincann Wow this is super helpful. Thanks for sharing all the wisdom! Quick question if that's okay: does this mean, for hypertrophy, having at least a four day split is kind of a default / ideal to manage enough volume and control fatigue?

Currently I am running a four day with Chest/Back/Shoulder and Quad/Hams each going twice a week, with about 8 good sets for each muscle group each session. (16 sets minimum per week per muscle group) Would you recommend adding in another day in there to split this further or would a four day suffice for an intermediate?

 

[justincann]

@gofthesearching Generally 4 days works out best at the low end much better than three days. That's why upper/lower splits tend to be up there as common. I've only seen 3 days work for beginner general strength and quasi minimalist power-lifting.

I'd say its totally common add another day to the common Upper/lower or push/pull splits as a "bro day" (basically an arms and everything else day) to fit volume in. There's nothing wrong with doing a 5th day to spread out the upper body load (I'll elaborate below but my 4 day splits are never 4 day). Essentially the lower body has only 3 big muscle groups to worry about, with the happy coincidence that most glutes and hamstring exercises basically train each other together. But the upper body has chest, upper back/lats/delts/ biceps/triceps. So splitting it up to a 3rd day is totally fine, you just have to be cognizant that you'll only get 1 rest day between each upper day. Whereas Upper/Lower splits you usually have a complete rest day after each leg day doing nothing. So just make sure you're recovering well.

My workaround for 4 day splits is shoulders go on my leg day since those are relatively shorter. Throwing in side delt stuff is just 2 more exercises/6 more sets. But also my four day splits are never actually 4 day lol. My saturday is in my garage doing strict curls treated like a main powerlift then french press. Then I'll do slow tempo deficit pushups to failure and them myo reps. The I'll do the same for chinups. Whole thing is a great end of week a burnout, takes me less time than it would be to even drive to the gym and only requires an ez curl bar and the cheapest weights I could find on craigslist. My reasoning being its just fun to work on a ridiculously big curl even if its "nonfunctional". And the chinups and pushups are just good things to have in your back pocket. You know, not be the one known "lifter guy" but can only do like 10 chinups and 30-40 pushups.

 

[gofthesearching]

@justincann Fantastic advice! Thanks a lot!

 

[justincann]

@gofthesearching Thanks no problem. I'm a HUGE advocate for your last day in a 5 day or 6 day split all be:

1. quick to knock out
2. can do at home.
3. Fun and broey.

The kind of thing you can knock out in 20 minutes shirtless in jeans while cranking Danzig in your garage (or insert whatever equivalent album for your appropriate generation). If your week gets away from you, Thursday workout gets moved to Friday, etc. you can still knock out the last day on the weekend in your garage.

 

[gofthesearching]

@justincann That sounds really fun to do actually. Based on your recommendation I modified my 4 day to have an extra day hitting shoulders and arms, so that gives a fun three times a week stimulus to the more faster recovering muscles!

Day1 : chest shoulders back, triceps /
Day2 : hams and quads, biceps /
Day3 : chest shoulders back; triceps /
Day4 : hams and quads, biceps /
Day5 : a fun extra day to hit shoulders (side rear delts) and arms!

Already looking forward to this !

 

[eighty]

@peterjames Try it.

 

[hartsarts]

@peterjames If you're doing 3 days a week there's no way I'd do PPL