Training styles of Geoffrey Verity Schofield and Natural Hypertrophy (Volume vs Intensity)

[jamierite74]

As for the training focused natural bodybuilding YT channels w/ quality info these 2 have some of the most lean mass on their frames, and their training styles are very similar:

1. They train HARD (extremely close proximity to failure, if not to failure). Same as me, now
2. They do a lot of volume (weekly sets) per muscle. Pretty sure GVS does 20+ per major muscle per week, even 30+ for back. In a bulk especially they say its important to build up volumes. GVS's loads are nothing crazy, especially for his size. Different from me

Now Ive been training 14yrs. I spent many years doing ~12 sets per muscle/wk, a cpl reps from failure. For the past year w/ HIT gaining traction (Jordan Peters, AJ Morris, etc) I realized the importance of training right at the brink of failure and I lowered sets per major muscle (per 7 days) to 6-10 sets. Ive believed the concept of 'volume' was a little overrated. GVS/NH's numbers confuse me b/c I feel like any more than this would zap me. I lift with very controlled technique in the 6-15 rep range but my mental approach is very number focused, lots of rest between sets. However if I approached those sets with a different mentality and the SAME EXACT proximity to failure (hard as hell, no reps in tank) I feel like I might be able to do more sets. Very difficult to explain but almost like getting in a rhythm w/ it, less load-chasing (2nd thought rather than 1st thought), loads will come. Welcome some fatigue

With regards to volume do you think theres a lot of validity in their approach to training? At my experience level am I probably better off pushing more volume in my bulk to reach that next level?

 

[doks]

@jamierite74 I’ve been training for about 10 years and tbh, I think the high volume and high intensity camp are both doing the same thing but in slightly different ways. That is to say both methods create a crap ton of mechanical tension, but one uses more weight and one uses more reps.

I think if you’re progressing in your exercises week to week, then whatever you’re doing is working. If you’re not progressing but nutrition and sleep are on point, then add a little more volume, and so on.

 

[becknps]

@jamierite74 Gvs doesn't do 20+sets most of the time. It's usually 16ish for chest and shoulders and 25-30 for back but thats lats and upperback counted together. For the rest hes doing 10-14 sets. Just get his latest book, it's all explained in there.

Lastly, judging by his distance running background and him not being that strong it's safe to say hes very slow twitch dominant. Most people probably don't need that amount of volume.

 

[jamierite74]

@becknps

I noticed in this video he goes over his sets/wk. The way I like to count volume is all pushing together, all pulling together, etc. I cant watch rn at work but going by this I think he was like 35+ for UB pushing compounds and 35+ for UB pulling compounds. The rest were a little less than that. And about his strength I was thinking that that could be related to his mentality towards each set. If you arent load-chasing in the 5-15 range and just focus on getting the most out of the weights you use then the numbers will build up mich slower. From the outside looking in both scenarios look the same. Training to failure but maybe less psychological arousal. This allows more volume to be accumulated and maybe takes you to higher levels? Unlikely but I question it.

 

[becknps]

@jamierite74 Well if you're going to count sets by movement patterns then yes it will become much higher on paper. But I personally don't like that way of counting sets, and I know most people don't count it like that. That would be like doing 3 sets of curls and saying I do 20+ sets for biceps because of all the pulling movements but my arms never grow. Or I do 20 sets for back but my lats are small (only doing upperback movements) It's easier to track how much work your muscle is doing if you only count direct sets.

Your second point is spot on though. Putting too much emphasis on the load or weekly rep increases will just burn you out and hinder your performance. I made the same mistake before and I believe their approach to this is very good.

 

[jamierite74]

@becknps Yea so I basically just count direct work for each muscle. So rows/pulldowns are only counted towards back. Curls only for biceps. Etc. But yes Id say currently I train more like the British BBers ideologies taken from Jordan Peters. Very load-focused, lower volumes. Still controlled technique in the 6-15 range but main goal is using more weight which I wonder if its hurting my development since it means I cant do as much volume

 

[becknps]

@jamierite74 I've been down that HIT rabbit hole, definitely felt like it hindered progress after a few weeks. As natural bodybuilders we can only increase the weight so much before we plateau. JP can just up his dose and his strength will keep increasing, most people don't have that luxury.

It does teach you how to take sets to failure and the importance of progressive overload though, so that's good. But at a certain point you need a bit more volume when the weights are not going up. Doesn't have to be an insane amount but maybe go from 6 weekly sets to 8-10.

I really recommend GVS newest book, like I said it's all explained in there and he has 5 (6?) workout programs you can follow. The volume isn't as much as you would think, average is 8-12 sets per muscle/week.

 

[jamierite74]

@becknps Id love to read it and its very tempting but I always told myself Id never spend $ on lifting related e-books. I dont wanna give in haha

 

[scientartist]

@jamierite74 His book is only 20 bucks when you've got fitness influencers charging 200$ for templates alone... I think it's worth it

 

[bubblegoose42]

@jamierite74 You pursue the one you enjoy and gives you progress. Notice geoffrey and NH are actually very weak for their training age and size. They obviously take a very hypertrophic approach to improve since that’s what they personally saw improvements in. You’re going to keep doing what works for you.

I became a natural pro doing the powerlifting basic compounds(+ OHP) and bodybuilding secondary.

You should be advanced enough to have tried multiple programs by now. I always measure myself at the end of cuts and bulks. If you aren’t tracking properly, you aren’t really pursuing improvement.

 

[jamierite74]

@bubblegoose42 About his strength I was thinking that that could be related to his mentality towards each set. If you arent load-chasing (still within the 5-15 range) and just focus on getting the most out of the weights you use then the numbers will build up much slower. From the outside looking in both scenarios look the same. Training to failure but maybe less psychological arousal. This allows more volume to be accumulated and maybe takes you to higher levels? Unlikely but I question if it affects my development over time.

Im pretty meticulous with macro-tracking (11+ years of it), log all sessions. I just havent experimented eith training volunes TOO much and stay within volume parameters I know i can handle. For the past 8 years Ive done either ~12 per major muscle/wk w/ a cpl reps in the tank, or Ive done 6-10/wk at the brink of failure

 

[eludan]

@bubblegoose42 They’re comparatively weak on compounds but are also comparatively very strong on isolation

 

[nathanpin77122]

@jamierite74 If you have been training for 14 years, haven’t you tried a lot of different approaches? You have more training experience than both of them I believe.

I’m not nearly as experienced as you but, does your lower volume approach work? If yes then why change to something else? Of course if the answer is no then you can try doing more sets to failure, or even a completely different approach.

I feel that your issue is complicated and requires a lot of trial and error. A random stranger on the internet can’t tell you something about you especially with only this information given that you can’t figure out yourself. Mike Israetel has great videos on volume guidelines. The simplest way I can put it is start your mesocycle at a low amount of sets and about 3rir. Then based on your soreness and when you recover, either add more sets or progress at the same amount. You will probably reach a higher amount of sets at the end of your meso where you deload and repeat the process.

 

[jamierite74]

@nathanpin77122 Ill be honest I havent experimented as much as I should have over the years. I stay in a pretty narrow window of parameters based on how much work I know I can handle. The 2 volume/intensity set ups I mentioned Ive been doing for the last 8 years of my 14. Theres only so much time to bulk and it almost feels like trying new approaches is wasting time that I couldve been sticking to the current set up and focusing on progression.

And at my experience level its tough to say what works, or what variables work better than others, since progression is so slow. But I sometimes question if certain variables could take me to the next level, like in this case attempting to work up closer to ~20 sets/wk when Ive never gone beyond 12, or 10 with very HARD training. Like maybe one could say with 10+yrs training theres a high probability that 10 hard sets/wk per muscle is hurting progression. And someone w/ this experience should have most likely built up to more work. I guess thats kind of what Im looking for.

Im big on the quote "success leaves clues" so I always try to look for the primary training variables in the ones achieving a lot of success in this sport. Usually its training HARD and building up to heavy loads in the 5-15 rep range w/ controlled technqiue. But Ive noticed this volume (+ hard training) trend in a lot of natural guys lately that have serious LBM on their frames

 

[nathanpin77122]

@jamierite74 Considering the fact that you say you are highly advanced and progress is slow, I’d probably say try working up to more hard sets per week. For a mesocycle 4-8 weeks and see how you feel. If you are beat down a lot you can always just cut it after a few weeks. The sure thing is that you will for sure maintain your mass and potentially add a bit more. Really not many downsides in my opinion.

I’m gonna return to the Israetel style meso one more time though, you literally go based on feel. Let’s say you start at about 10 sets for chest per week at about 3 reps in reserve. You just add sets based on feel while training harder and harder and see where you end up at the end. The most autoregulated approach to be honest. Even in the failure training you are doing, just try finding your volume based on feel ( how much beat down you feel, how sore you are, how much disturbance there is in the target muscle etc) and you will probably either stay at the same or end up at a different number. If 5 sets of chest per session leaves you pretty fresh and you feel like you could have done more, you probably could have pushed it a bit.

 

[jamierite74]

@nathanpin77122 I guess youre right that there arent many downsides to it. In general I dont like going off course which is why I dont very often. Honestly I never liked Israetels RP meso-progression style. It starts out too easy and ends too difficult. I feel like the general masses have gotten superior results keeping volume/RIR more stagnant. But yes like you said its very auto-regulated which could teach you a lot about yourself. I might still keep it stagnant but add a little volume to see if I can handle it. For the past year Ive done 6-10 sets/muscle/wk at the brink of failure. For many years prior to that I did 12 sets/wk with a couple reps in reserve. Right now it seems like more would zap me but I could be wrong, especially if I have a different mentality going into each set (volume mentality versus a load mentality if that makes sense, regardless of rep range)

 

[nathanpin77122]

@jamierite74 Not going off course is a good thing in general, and if something works, you should of course generally stick to it. Many of the reasons even beginners “stagnate” is because they do a bunch of different nonsense every workout.

About the Israetel system, I get your concern and I think I got a “counter” argument to that. I actually used to think the same way as you which is why I was somewhat opposed to the system. The first times I tried it I got great results in some areas, but I kind of stopped improving after a couple of weeks in others due to doing too much. I also treated sets as something that has to be increased somewhat every week, while my starting point was already pretty high. However if you really start at a low amount (my high intensity low volume experience taught me that it’s possible to progress with low sets) the addition of sets feels pretty natural. After a complete deload just a couple of high quality sets get the job done at about 3 rir. When that doesn’t feel like much, that’s when the addition of sets happens. It creates a nice balance between not overdoing it at the start and ending at a reasonable amount.

That being said, I completely support your approach of trying to do just a bit more with your current training system. Probably the most reasonable thing to do. Stagnant RIR/sets is a very smart thing to do and I do believe it has gotten me great results in the past and prevented me from some of the errors that can be made with an Israetel style mesocycle.

 

[namakula]

@jamierite74 I think you need to look at it from the approach of, what is the threshold of mechanical tension do you personally need to induce to reach 90% or more (i.e. "most") of your available gains through your training; given you are in the advanced stage and know how to train within genuine 0-2 RIR and you are progressing with 6-10 sets per week, I would say you've found your sweet spot (I am around the same, 8-10 sets). If you are progressing, it is working, and do not fix what is not broken.

Pushing volume further than this may get slightly more results but for exponential increases in time, injury risk, fatigue and effort which is probably not going to be worth it for most. Keep in mind that this number is going to change for every individual, for GVS it may be around 15 and he is doing an extra 5 sets for that extra 5-10%, which is absolutely fine and makes sense since his career is built off his training and fitness.

But for the rest of us who don't depend on our training to put food on the table, in my opinion we should be looking to do what is the most effective and adherable routine that we can do for the next 10-20+ years, and that means getting "most" of the gains in an effective and fatigue-minimising way. I highly recommend reading this article of effective reps by Chris Beardsley, and he also has a Patreon with plenty of information to help us figure out questions like these.

 

[alamostthere]

@jamierite74 Volume, intensity, frequency : You can't have them all. Choose one or two and dial back the others.

For those 2 guys who do a lot of volume there are many other natural bodybuilders who do far less and are as big or bigger. For example natural pro Jeff Alberts :

Bigger and leaner than both of them.

 

[jamierite74]

@alamostthere Ive followed Jeff for 10 years. Hes definitely a high-responder to training and is genetically blessed. I feel like that might be way he does so well with such low volumes. I dont think low volumes are bad either bc Im fairly low myself. I could be talking out of my ass here but someone like GVS with a FRACTION of Jeffs time spent lifting (and probably worse genetics as seen from his distance runner days) seems to have more sheer LBM on his frame. Is his higher volume (+HARD sets) approach the main reason why hes built up to this level? Unlikely but I question it. Many high volume guys havent achieved much success b/c they have too much easy fluff junk volume. If you train at the brink of fail and approach your sets correctly to be able to handle more volume over time maybe that side prevails.