Amino acid deficiencies are actually a huge concern as a vegan weightlifter, aren't they?

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tripp1523

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I'm fully aware that protein/AA concerns are dumb if you aren't a bodybuilder like me. But if you are, they are a *huge* concern. I keep seeing people say that by combining different proteins, you hit essential AA distributions similar to whey, but this is bullshit. Remember, I am talking only about people trying to maximize muscle growth, not ordinary vegans. You can *reduce* some disparities, but you still have huge ones even with combining and I don't think people on this sub have *actually* done the math themselves.

I just did though. I equated whey to either 50% rice and 50% pea protein powders, and also compared whey to just soy protein powders alone. I adjusted for overall protein, overall grams, scoopage etc. compared between the groups as well. No matter which way you distribute the protein, the results are fucking depressing man.

I'm too lazy to figure out how to post my math cuz its sloppy, personalized on paper, but you can crunch the numbers yourself if you don't believe me. For example, whey threonine per 28 gram scoop is 1708, whereas 28 grams of soy is only 805 grams. Over a 100% difference. A 63 gram, roughly equal combo of pea and rice protein gives only 1887 threonine, compared to 3843 threonine in 63 grams of the whey. Over 100% gap. And this is just threonine. There are gaps in almost all of the essential amino acids. And it doesnt even matter is some other gaps are small, or if Pea plus rice has more histidine, because the excess is just gonna be burnt off. All it takes is a single AA, such as threonine, to fuck everything else up.

I feel like vegans keep underexaggerating this issue. LIMITING essential AAs are all that matters, total protein intake is literally completely irrelevant (for a bodybuilder remember). Even with using the most popular sources of powdered vegan protein, I would have to consume double the amount of a whey consumer to get the same amount of just threonine alone. The max protein an omnivore can use is 0.73 grams/pound, so that would mean 1.46 grams/lb as a vegan bodybuilder, and thats not even counting other concerns like bioavailability (which i know isn't much of a concern with powders though, but there still are bioavailability differences right? I am aware that the omnivores hitting 0.73 grams per pound are not just eating whey, that 0.73 includes plant protein just like vegans. But still, that gap will be massive in some essential AAs, even after adjusting for these confounding variables.

I'm currently transitioning into being vegan, and will go vegan regardless. But this shit is seriously depressing as a weightlifter, and you have some vegans downplaying these concerns and theyre just wrong. Like, crunch the numbers yourselves, the AAs are right on the containers you can find online. and then you have some meat eaters saying that vegans as a whole are protein deficient (not talking about weightlifters), and theyre completely wrong too. Remember, I'm just talking about weightlifters only.

You can do your own essential AA calculations on the same products I listed if you don't believe me.

What can I do? are there any other combos that are better? I didnt do math on 2/3 pea to 1/3 rice protein, but the gaps would still be colossal there as well I'm sure. I cant buy bacteria made whey cuz its unbelievably expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/Certified-Or...c&sprefix=rice+protein+powder,hpc,126&sr=1-20

https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Protein-...sprefix=pea+protein+powde,hpc,114&sr=1-5&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/Sports-Prote...1836&sprefix=soy+protein+powde,aps,351&sr=8-5

https://www.amazon.com/Sports-Nutri...y&qid=1700521032&sprefix=whey,aps,194&sr=8-37
 
@tripp1523 I’m no expert but I don’t think you need to be this militant about every AA, the body stores and assembles them with a great deal of efficiency over long periods. Follow some veg bodybuilders like Nimai Delgado for inspiration and meal ideas.
 
@tripp1523 A few things to consider:

You may not want to hear this, but bodybuilding isn't always equivalent to being healthy. Many body builders are incredibly unhealthy. Extra mass can cause strain on heart, bones and ligaments over time. One reason a lot of people don't focus on the point you are driving at is that there is no functional benefit to gainz unless you are focused on building mass which long term is actually not always great for your body

Follow up to this is focusing on just strength/lean mass, since that's apparently what you care about. I think this in particular is in fact overblown in most health/fitness supplements. Your body is incredibly efficient at generating amino acids via enzymes and I would argue the literature is pretty mixed on whether supplementing actually has benefits, particularly when considering long term health. If your focus is exclusively on "gainz" I think it's worth considering thinking about diversifying your dietary protein in addition to total protein. I personally really enjoy pumpkin seed protein, pea protein, rice protein, wheat protein all of which are available without sweeteners or extra ingredients if you look around. However, I also eat lots of tofu, legumes, whole grains and vegetables. If your diet is sufficiently diverse, you will not be lacking in diversity of amino acids sufficient for building mass.
 
@tripp1523 I’m not a nutritionist so can’t comment on the validity of this, but the extra gains are no justification for innocent animals pain and suffering. Making the ethical choice sometimes comes at a cost to some other personal benefit or convenience.
 
@mhil43 I know, you are absolutely correct, I will go vegan regardless. Just annoying how people keep downplaying this concern for bodybuilders.
 
@tripp1523 Because non-bodybuilders will use it as an excuse for not going vegan. Can’t tell you how many skinny people I come across who say “meat makes you stronger” when it’s clear they don’t even go to the gym.
 
@tripp1523 Yep, it’s a concern. I don’t think I agree with “all it takes is a single AA to fuck it all up” though. Leucine is far and away the most important, and you can and should just eat extra protein compared to an omnivore and even take EAA supplements to help bridge the gap on the rest of them.

There is also vegan whey now which is supposed to be basically identical to whey from animal products, so you could switch entirely to vegan whey and avoid most of these concerns anyway.
 
@aram How do you feel about just taking a leucine powder supplement with meals to hit the leucine threshold for muscle protein synthesis several times a day? This is what I have been considering doing. I too am concerned about AAs like OP.
 
@richardtus Seems like that should work as long as it doesn’t end up being your only source of protein. Leucine still needs the other AAs to work in combination with it. It’s better to do this with EAA supplements but that will get expensive doing it a few times a day.
 
@aram No, the leucine would not be my only protein source. I planned some meals out, mostly beans and grains, some soy, and I can easily get 1 g plus protein/lb bodyweight with vegan meals. So I thought I was all set, but then I heard about leucine threshold 😩. Seems crazy I gotta supplement leucine powder every meal when my meals are so high protein already.
 
@richardtus To be fair we’re taking about pure optimization here. You can still get fantastic results with whatever leucine you get from your normal diet without having to use any amino supplements. I don’t know exactly what the percentage improvement of “manually” adding the extra leucine is but I can’t imagine it’s more than 10-20%. You just have to decide if the trade off is worth the hassle and expense for your goals.
 
@aram But why wouldn't one AA fuck it all up? I hope you're right, and maybe you are, I'm just trying to understand. I know that leucine is the most important, there's like a 50% gap in leucine still but that's manageable. It's the 100% gap shit that freaks me out.
 
@tripp1523 It’s not gonna fuck it up

“Omnivorous and vegan diets can support comparable rested and exercised daily MyoPS rates in healthy young adults consuming a high-protein diet. This translates to similar skeletal muscle adaptive responses during prolonged high-volume resistance training, irrespective of dietary protein provenance. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT03572127.”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36822394/

And theorinine is just found in a smaller quantity, you can still hit ur daily needs.

And this isn’t true for all aminos, some are higher in plants and most are around the same.If ur that concerned abt this I mean just take a supplement?Or even a vegan whey(like lab grown stuff)
 
@tripp1523 When James Wilks was on JRE he addressed the amino acids concern. His conclusion was that even though the animal products do have more AAs like Leucine etc., beyond a certain threshold there is no added benefit and the amount you consume from plant foods is sufficient, given you are hitting your protein target.
 
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