@tripp1523 Try tracking what you eat in a day on Cronometer to see what distribution of amino acids you're getting in a day on average. Keep in mind that other foods besides just "high protein" foods contain amino acids.
Amino acid deficiencies are actually a huge concern as a vegan weightlifter, aren't they?
- Thread starter tripp1523
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@tripp1523 No, it’s not that dire. Here’s one meta analysis on the actual results. The difference between muscle growth is ‘significant’ in terms a study. It’s not that significant as a factor.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33670701/
Strength, absolute muscle mass growth are the same. Lean muscle mass growth is slightly lower for vegan bodybuilders. It’s the equivalent of just doing an extra set or getting a little more sleep or adding 5g of protein. But they are not ‘a huge concern’. There are so many areas of your life to optimize for muscle growth and this tiny percentage is not something to worry about.
You said you’re a weightlifter not a body builder in the title. And then you note you’re trying to maximize muscle growth. These are different goals. And regarding strength, vegan protein performed the same as meat.
Just as reps and training protocol will differ for the goal of strength and goal of muscle growth. There’s obviously some overlap but you’re not coming across as particularly dialed in on these things first.
In short, vegan muscles may be very very slightly smaller over time all other things being equal. However they will be just as strong all things being equal. If you’re a weightlifter - this should not be ‘depressing’.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33670701/
Strength, absolute muscle mass growth are the same. Lean muscle mass growth is slightly lower for vegan bodybuilders. It’s the equivalent of just doing an extra set or getting a little more sleep or adding 5g of protein. But they are not ‘a huge concern’. There are so many areas of your life to optimize for muscle growth and this tiny percentage is not something to worry about.
You said you’re a weightlifter not a body builder in the title. And then you note you’re trying to maximize muscle growth. These are different goals. And regarding strength, vegan protein performed the same as meat.
Just as reps and training protocol will differ for the goal of strength and goal of muscle growth. There’s obviously some overlap but you’re not coming across as particularly dialed in on these things first.
In short, vegan muscles may be very very slightly smaller over time all other things being equal. However they will be just as strong all things being equal. If you’re a weightlifter - this should not be ‘depressing’.
natervader
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awretchlikeme
New member
@tripp1523 "AcKsHyUaLlY"
Look, this issue has been beaten to death already. Regardless of what math you do on the theoretical numbers underlying the issue, the actual actual outcomes have been directly measured, and the result was that vegan protein sources produced just as much gainz as animal sources (whey specifically). Why? How? It doesn't matter as long as we know that it's true, but a few potential reasons are:
whey wasn't that good in the first place
our bodies compensate for the differences better than you expect
random chance
side effects compensate for the differences
Gym bros, and the study participants, were just getting way more protein than they needed anyway.
...Seriously, who has ever made an accurate measurement of their exact personal protein requirements? Do you even know anyone who could figure out how to do that?
If you're micro-managing amino acids, then something is probably wrong, even as a weightlifter.
Look, this issue has been beaten to death already. Regardless of what math you do on the theoretical numbers underlying the issue, the actual actual outcomes have been directly measured, and the result was that vegan protein sources produced just as much gainz as animal sources (whey specifically). Why? How? It doesn't matter as long as we know that it's true, but a few potential reasons are:
whey wasn't that good in the first place
our bodies compensate for the differences better than you expect
random chance
side effects compensate for the differences
Gym bros, and the study participants, were just getting way more protein than they needed anyway.
...Seriously, who has ever made an accurate measurement of their exact personal protein requirements? Do you even know anyone who could figure out how to do that?
If you're micro-managing amino acids, then something is probably wrong, even as a weightlifter.
@tripp1523 I use vegan whey to get a different amino acid profile from my other protein sources! Whey Forward from My Protein is very affordable!
@johnhenrygroenewald Thank you for this. This might be my saving grace. If I consume three of these packets per day, and get all of my other protein from plant sources, I should be able to maximize muscle growth I think. This source is waaaay cheaper thank you. I don't know how I missed this one when scrolling through options.
larryicels
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@tripp1523 This is a Fakespot Reviews Analysis bot. Fakespot detects fake reviews, fake products and unreliable sellers using AI.
Here is the analysis for the Amazon product reviews:
Link to Fakespot Analysis | Check out the Fakespot Chrome Extension!
Fakespot analyzes the reviews authenticity and not the product quality using AI. We look for real reviews that mention product issues such as counterfeits, defects, and bad return policies that fake reviews try to hide from consumers.
We give an A-F letter for trustworthiness of reviews. A = very trustworthy reviews, F = highly untrustworthy reviews. We also provide seller ratings to warn you if the seller can be trusted or not.
Here is the analysis for the Amazon product reviews:
Link to Fakespot Analysis | Check out the Fakespot Chrome Extension!
Fakespot analyzes the reviews authenticity and not the product quality using AI. We look for real reviews that mention product issues such as counterfeits, defects, and bad return policies that fake reviews try to hide from consumers.
We give an A-F letter for trustworthiness of reviews. A = very trustworthy reviews, F = highly untrustworthy reviews. We also provide seller ratings to warn you if the seller can be trusted or not.
stephen1978
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@tripp1523 At high protein consumption this is irrelevant you're gonna meet your amino acid needs and then some. At 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight you're gonna be fine unless you're eating just one protein source, could be as low as 1.2 that it's not a concern.
If you still are worried though, potatoes are a complementary food to a lot of protein sources (wheat, soy, pea, beans) so keep that in mind as you try and pick your complementary foods
If you still are worried though, potatoes are a complementary food to a lot of protein sources (wheat, soy, pea, beans) so keep that in mind as you try and pick your complementary foods
natervader
New member
@tripp1523 I'm a toxicologist, and I worked in dietary supplement analysis for a long time (a long time ago). You can be concerned about all this on paper, but you're being a bit... dire. What I don't see here is any direct experience you've had suggesting some kind of personal limitation. Instead, you're wringing hands about a problem you've not done the math for. I suggest that you observe and document your situation over time, see what "the math" translates to in terms of your own physiological response to the path you take. I strongly doubt you'll discover evidence to justify feeling like this is some major, undiscussed problem. It's not really a problem in practice. Essential amino acid distributions aren't as relevant to your body's ability to respond to muscle building stimuli as they are to the multibillion dollar supplement industry.
Hang in there and report back if you start noticing a plateau in your progress. It's easier to troubleshoot observed patterns than anticipated patterns.
Hang in there and report back if you start noticing a plateau in your progress. It's easier to troubleshoot observed patterns than anticipated patterns.
@tripp1523 Bodybuilder here, never had an issue with protein. The combining is super easy in case you eat lentils or beans, just add rice. Other than that I eat tvp of soy and other soy products which are full proteins.
Your concerns are.... not even worth mentioning tbh.
Your concerns are.... not even worth mentioning tbh.
@janet1971 I mean, my concerns were that when you crunch individual amino acid numbers, there's still very large deficiencies, even after mixing vegan protein sources. sometimes half as much for some AAs compared to whey.
However, as other commenters pointed out, these limiting AAs may be more conserved by the body as a result and less likely to be oxidized for energy. So it may not matter too much it seems.
Moreover, a commenter sourced me a much cheaper bacterial made whey than the other brand I knew about. From that I will consume in 60grams a day, the others from plant proteins and I should be maximized from there. Maybe I would've been maximized even without the bacterial whey I just wanted to be fully sure you know? I'm also pretty neurotic I guess.
However, as other commenters pointed out, these limiting AAs may be more conserved by the body as a result and less likely to be oxidized for energy. So it may not matter too much it seems.
Moreover, a commenter sourced me a much cheaper bacterial made whey than the other brand I knew about. From that I will consume in 60grams a day, the others from plant proteins and I should be maximized from there. Maybe I would've been maximized even without the bacterial whey I just wanted to be fully sure you know? I'm also pretty neurotic I guess.
linda32817
New member
@tripp1523 I gotta be honest, the fact that you're conflating weightlifting and bodybuilding makes me think you're aren't yet at the level of experience where obsessing about macros, let alone amino acids, is going to matter much. You don't need to supplement with protein powder at all.
everette16
New member
@tripp1523 Yes, totally agree about the limiting animo acids and overall balance. I have done a lot of experimentation due to health issues.
Here is a great article about them with plenty of information.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/limiting-amino-acids
oh and as for your question about what you can do. You can add sesame tahini to pea protein for optimal methionine and threonine content. I have quite a lot. Makes my body heal and my hair grow. If you increase methionine, there is information that suggests that we should take a choline supplement, if we are not having enough B vitamins. Otherwise, homocysteine builds up in the body and we do not want that.
Here is a great article about them with plenty of information.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/limiting-amino-acids
oh and as for your question about what you can do. You can add sesame tahini to pea protein for optimal methionine and threonine content. I have quite a lot. Makes my body heal and my hair grow. If you increase methionine, there is information that suggests that we should take a choline supplement, if we are not having enough B vitamins. Otherwise, homocysteine builds up in the body and we do not want that.
armywife13
New member
@tripp1523 No.
@armywife13 crunch the numbers that i just crunched, its clearly a massive concern for weightlifters specifically. Do you deny that there is a huge gap in threonine for example between the groups?
deacongirl
New member
@tripp1523 Vegan EAAs are available if you are worried about this.There are at least 4 brands that I can think of. Right now I take Naked Nutrition EAAs. So easy.