Help me fix this pull day

[maxmillianmichieli]

Couple days ago, it was my pull day which consisted in:

• Close neutral grip lat pulldown, 2 sets, 8-10 reps

• Wide grip pronated low cable (gironda) row for upper back, 3 sets, 8-10 reps

• Single arm low cable row, narrow trajectory for lats: 2 sets, 8-10 reps, last set to failure

• Wide grip pull-ups, 2 sets 8-10 reps, last set to failure

•Wide neutral grip barbell shrugs, 2 sets, 10-15 reps, last set to failure

• Hyperextensions for lower back, 3 sets, 15-20 reps

• Single arm cable pullover, 2 sets 10-15 reps, last set to failure

• Supinated alternate biceps curl, 3 sets, 8-12 reps each arm, last 2 sets to failure

• FacePull, 3 sets, 10-15 reps, last set to failure

• Single arm Bayesian curl, 3 sets, 10-15 reps, last 2 sets to failure

It's 10 exercises, 2 vertical pulling, 2 horizontal rows, 4 "isolation" movements for upper traps, rear delts, lats and lower back, and then 2 biceps exercises. I don't find it excessive volume since it's 10 sets or less for each muscle, but it was more than 2 h in the gym despite the fact that most exercises are only 2 sets and I superset some of them like pullovers with shrugs or facepulls and hyperextensions. With 3-4 min rest between sets. Is this too much volume done once a week? Should I move biceps o rear delts work (or both) to another day? Is there some exercise there that's dispensable? Any modification you guys would made regardless of volume? Thanks in advance.

 

[dove44]

@maxmillianmichieli Reduce the amount of exercises, it's excessive unless you're incredibly advanced and massively adds to the time of workout (going between machines etc). Really you just need 3 or 4 pulling movements that cover upper/middle back and lats. Reduce volume, it's likely too high so maybe just add more intensity overall. If you really want to do facepulls (if you do enough pulling not needed, superset them otherwise drop given the amount of pull. Back extensions move to leg day.

Overall it's just far too long and complicated. You also don't talk about progression at all.

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@dove44 Going between machines is no problem since I basically train in an old bunker-like gym in the middle of a "forest area" which has the barely minimum required. There's no machines, just cables, barbells, plates, dumbbells (and not very heavy ones)...

It's not that much volume, 11 sets (once a week) for lats and counting the upper back rows in them which won't be the same as obviously the other more focused exercises...

I follow a double progression (once reached the rep goal, increase the weight), but started to do a dynamic double progression (which is basically the same but applying it to every set individually, which allows weight and rep variance in between sets), and probably will start including a top set/back off system.

I was thinking about doing a shoulders&arms day for biceps and facepulls, or remove the narrow rowing and the pull-ups, and yeah maybe hyperextensions for leg day or core training.

 

[dove44]

@maxmillianmichieli It still adds a significant amount of time going between setting up etc, just something to think about. Especially with 2 set of top and back off approach. I'm in the same style gym and train much the same progression wise, do find it adds time.

Yes it's fine volume per week, but it's too much in one day - volume is better thought of weekly. If you're 3 days a week and want to do legs once, why not do upper legs upper? Can superset a bit more then whilst spreading the volume out.

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@dove44 How would you structure the two upper days?

 

[theodor98]

@dove44 Love to know your overall routine and exercise rep/set scheme

 

[gladventist]

@maxmillianmichieli well we know nothing else about your split. if it’s too long, why can’t you split this up into two sessions?

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@gladventist Push, pull, legs, once a week each. I practise other sports.

 

[gladventist]

@maxmillianmichieli if you can only hit the gym 3 days a week i would probably just do full body workouts

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@gladventist Another one with the fullbody religion. Full body is not better than any other splits. In fact, is probably worse since you can't express enough intensity for almost any muscle, cause you have to train it again literally 2 days later. And since I practise a sport where I use the legs a lot, I simply can't do legs more than once per week and in a less taxating way than anyone who only wants hypertrophy.

Edit: not only that, since time spent in the gym is the main problem here, prescribing a fullbody routine will do nothing but make it worse.

 

[gladventist]

@maxmillianmichieli alright, i can tell by that comment you have no idea how to train for hypertrophy. you come here asking for advice but don’t want to hear it.

you can easily do full body 3 times a week and do your sports. and i guarantee the sessions can take less than the 2 hours you are doing now while being more effective. just because it is full body does not mean you have to train your legs extremely hard to the point it impairs your sports every session.

if you want to continue doing PPL once a week each then why even ask anyone for advice? you have it all figured out and don’t want to change. if you want to actually be open to improving, then listen and don’t call anything other than what you’re doing a religion.

since you said you can really only do legs once a week, then maybe an upper lower upper split would work. but you didnt say that before. hence my full body suggestion

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@gladventist

don’t want to hear it.

I heard the fullbody prescription a lot of times. A damn lot. It's a religion, a fashion, something temporary that will disappear in a couple years just as the powerlifting focused and the 3 basics religion disappeared form the hypertrophy scene back in the 2015-17. It's a cult, it has no fundamentation in science nor in anecdotical evidence that it's superior to any other more specific split. A cult emerged from the fact that some bronze and silver era stars supposedly did it back then.

But fullbody has no case. Unnecessarily long (my exact problem) workouts, nothing specific (which is a problem since hypertrophy is a localised phenomenon), inability to reach failure or being too close to it (which is the main hypertrophy driver), lack of rest time for connective tissue, etc. etc. Maybe for a complete beginner in order to learn well the movement pattern of the exercises and people who can't express intensity but nothing away form that.

then why even ask anyone for advice?

Because I want to reduce the time spent in the gym of only ONE of that days. The pull day. That's the one I want to edit.

just because it is full body does not mean you have to train your legs extremely hard to the point it impairs your sports every session.

Yes, yes it means that. If I perform Monday squats, Wednesday leg extensions and Friday Bulgarian squats, for instance, I would need to go very, very light to not tax my performance. And that's only quads, not even talking about hams, glutes, calves or core muscles.

then maybe an upper lower upper split would work. but you didnt say that before. hence my full body suggestion

You're describing the upper-lower split as basically a nerfed alternative to fullbody, which is at best, delusional. It's basically the opposite.

 

[gladventist]

@maxmillianmichieli ludicrous comment.

to answer your initial question -

skip the single arms cable rows
skip the pulldowns
skip the pullovers
skip the shrugs
superset the curls with the facepulls
superset the other curls with the back extension
move bicep work to another day completely
move back extensions to leg day
remove one of the curl variations completely
move the facepulls to your push day

any combination of a few of these will help certainly. options are pretty much endless

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@gladventist

superset the curls with the facepulls superset the other curls with the back extension

I already do this. That's the problem. I spend a lot of time in the gym even doing that.

The other ones I could try.

 

[stallions]

@maxmillianmichieli You posted asking for advice and when anyone gives you advice you immediately shut it down. PPL once a week is very sub optimal. This giy is telling you that and youre arguing because you dont know enough about the subject. People like you just stay ignorant

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@stallions No, no. I asked for advice on some specific matter, and he responded me with some cultist beliefs without adding explanation. PPL once a week may be sub optimal (but I've grown with that and I've seen others grow with that), but is way more optimal than fullbody 3x. I'm growing more now than when I did Upper-Lower with two torso days a week and he prescribed me increase my frecuency and reduce my intensity which is the opposite of what made me grow.

you dont know enough about the subject.

I dismiss fullbody and then I don't know about the subject. This only proves my point that fullbody is merely a fashion.

 

[lxa93]

@maxmillianmichieli Please refrain from spreading false information. Based on your experience and the DIY routine you posted here, you're in no position to offer people bodybuilding advice. Sorry but no one should take advice from beginners. You're just adding garbage information to this sub.

 

[itsagoodday]

@maxmillianmichieli If you're only letting 3 days a week you are just going to have narrow down your focus. It's just a little unrealistic to try and hit every angle in one day. Do a couple horizontal and vertical pulls, some shrugs and a biceps exercise. Something like Bent over row, cable Row with neutral grip, pull ups, pull downs, dumbell shrugs and incline curls

 

[overcoming1]

@maxmillianmichieli throw pull overs awway. and set vertical pulls total 6 sets. and u can but lower back work at leg days

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@overcoming1 Vertical pulls are already 6 sets. 2 for close grip, 2 for wide grip, 2 for pullovers.