How long b/f you could do a pull-up
- Thread starter ambitiouspoetry
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coffeecuplady
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@alisssabru In my experience, weight definitely does make a difference. That being said, I could do an ugly chin-up at about the same BMI you're now, after just a couple of months of training. More as I managed to shed a bit of weight. Now, 10-15 lbs later, the number is a big fat 0 on most days but... meh. I'd say Google for pull-up progression and go for it. You'll never know if you don't try 
numenorian
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@alisssabru Look at it this way: regardless of your weight, you are pulling the same amount as everyone else. Every lb of your body weight has to pull 1 lb of weight. Body weight exercises are a great equalizer that way. The only thing that should make it marginally more difficult is that at 5 ft 8, you have to pull 4ish more inches than I do at 5 ft tall, because each of your arms is probably about 3-4 inches longer than mine.
@numenorian So this is wrong, but in my skimming of the responses I didn't see anyone giving you the correct reason. Bodyweight multipliers are not a great equalizer, they inherently favor smaller lifters.
The reason is that muscle strength is proportional to its cross-sectional area, whereas muscle mass is proportional to its volume. So, roughly speaking as a lifter gets larger, their strength goes up by r[sup]2[/sup] but their mass goes up by r[sup]3[/sup] , so they would have to have relatively greater strength to perform the same bodyweight feats as a smaller lifter.
This is why Wilks coefficients exist, why gymnasts are tiny, why elephants can't jump high, and why a 2x bodyweight squat means something different for a 150 lb lifter than a 300 lb lifter.
So actually, yes, it is inherently harder for larger people to do pull-ups.
The reason is that muscle strength is proportional to its cross-sectional area, whereas muscle mass is proportional to its volume. So, roughly speaking as a lifter gets larger, their strength goes up by r[sup]2[/sup] but their mass goes up by r[sup]3[/sup] , so they would have to have relatively greater strength to perform the same bodyweight feats as a smaller lifter.
This is why Wilks coefficients exist, why gymnasts are tiny, why elephants can't jump high, and why a 2x bodyweight squat means something different for a 150 lb lifter than a 300 lb lifter.
So actually, yes, it is inherently harder for larger people to do pull-ups.
numenorian
New member
@denice65 Okay, so thank you for actually using actual reality in your response. I do understand, and appreciate that. I should have realized that the Wilks system has a work in for this. That said, it's really not the huge difference people make it out to be. I hear so many women say they'll never be able to do pullups because of their size, or it will be 10x as hard for them. No. Train. You can do pullups. It might be a little harder, but it's not this impossible thing, and setting up that thinking is doing you zero good.
@numenorian Not everyone has the same muscle mass, so its not the same weight. Someone with 125 lbs of lean mass and 60 lbs of fat is going to have a harder time than say 150 lbs of lean mass and 35 pounds of fat.
numenorian
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@hopeco Right, but that has to do with body composition, and needing to train, and NOT actual weight. A person with less muscle mass who weighs the same as someone with more muscle mass is NOT lifting more weight. They can't lift the same weight, because they don't have enough lean mass per lb to do so. This is why I added "previous training" to my actual comment (above). There's a lot that goes into this, and you are assessing my statement(s) incorrectly.
Each lb of my weight needs to pull 1 lb of weight, in order to do a pull up. The same is true at any height, and any weight. The differential is if for each lb of weight I have, 65% of that lb is lean mass, I will be able to do pull-ups much easier than a person who has 20% lean mass per lb.
Still that has NOTHING to do with our weight or size. That has to do with how much muscle we have per lb. Losing weight will not help a person do pull-ups, if they maintain the same fat/muscle ratio as they had at a higher weight. Being a larger person will not affect you because you have extra weight to pull. What affects someone's ability to do body weight exercises at ANY weight, is how much of their mass is muscle.
This person asked if they would have a harder time because they weighed more. The answer is no. They won't. Their challenge doesn't have to do with weight. It has to do with lean mass %. They'll have a harder time only if more of that weight is from fat.
This is why body weight exercises are the great equalizer. They don't need a wilks score. Your ability to do a pull-ups is almost entirely reliant on your lean mass %.
Each lb of my weight needs to pull 1 lb of weight, in order to do a pull up. The same is true at any height, and any weight. The differential is if for each lb of weight I have, 65% of that lb is lean mass, I will be able to do pull-ups much easier than a person who has 20% lean mass per lb.
Still that has NOTHING to do with our weight or size. That has to do with how much muscle we have per lb. Losing weight will not help a person do pull-ups, if they maintain the same fat/muscle ratio as they had at a higher weight. Being a larger person will not affect you because you have extra weight to pull. What affects someone's ability to do body weight exercises at ANY weight, is how much of their mass is muscle.
This person asked if they would have a harder time because they weighed more. The answer is no. They won't. Their challenge doesn't have to do with weight. It has to do with lean mass %. They'll have a harder time only if more of that weight is from fat.
This is why body weight exercises are the great equalizer. They don't need a wilks score. Your ability to do a pull-ups is almost entirely reliant on your lean mass %.
johannammmm
New member
@numenorian
This is not accurate.. someone may be strong in their upper body and therefore be able to do more pullups than someone with the same lean mass who works more on their lower body. For one thing they will have more lower body weight to lift without the upper body strength. The ability to do pullups does have to do with muscle but only in the upper body. Also by practicing pullups or pullup like movements that increase strength in those areas and you can gain a lot of strength by doing low reps without a ton of muscle mass gain. It explains why a lot of power lifters are often small looking compared to body builders and can pull more weight on the big compound exercises. That is what they practice, and get good at. Body builders however have higher muscle to fat ratio.
Also I disagree about losing weight won't let you do pullups, when people lose "weight" on a diet, as long as they are eating sufficient protein, the majority of that weight will be from fat. Therefore lowering their body fat % and keeping most of their muscle. If they are going to the gym it's possible to keep all of the muscle and make it easier to pull up their body weight. It's very hard for an individual to lose weight and keep the same ratios unless they are on a god awful diet and don't touch a weight. I am guessing on this subreddit though that is not going to be the case.
This is not accurate.. someone may be strong in their upper body and therefore be able to do more pullups than someone with the same lean mass who works more on their lower body. For one thing they will have more lower body weight to lift without the upper body strength. The ability to do pullups does have to do with muscle but only in the upper body. Also by practicing pullups or pullup like movements that increase strength in those areas and you can gain a lot of strength by doing low reps without a ton of muscle mass gain. It explains why a lot of power lifters are often small looking compared to body builders and can pull more weight on the big compound exercises. That is what they practice, and get good at. Body builders however have higher muscle to fat ratio.
Also I disagree about losing weight won't let you do pullups, when people lose "weight" on a diet, as long as they are eating sufficient protein, the majority of that weight will be from fat. Therefore lowering their body fat % and keeping most of their muscle. If they are going to the gym it's possible to keep all of the muscle and make it easier to pull up their body weight. It's very hard for an individual to lose weight and keep the same ratios unless they are on a god awful diet and don't touch a weight. I am guessing on this subreddit though that is not going to be the case.
numenorian
New member
@johannammmm Okay, yes, you are correct that it matters how much lean mass you have in your upper body only. It is still reliant on lean mass.
You are incorrect that eating sufficient protein is enough to stop someone from losing muscle mass if they drop weight. At higher body fats, it is true that a person will generally lose more fat per lb of weight loss. As you get to lower body fats, even eating sufficient protein, that is no longer the case. You will NEVER lose a lb of weight and lose 100% fat. This is not going to happen. Saying it will is inaccurate.
Also, there are plenty of cases, including on this sub, where a person looks to lose weight, cuts too many calories, and loses weight, but even though they are working out, loses more muscle than fat. There have been several posts asking "what gives?" when someone gets dexa or bodpod results, before and after a cut, that show weight loss, but a higher body fat %/ much lower muscle mass following the cut. Muscle takes more for you body to sustain. If you habitually cut to many calories, it's going to go after the muscle first.
My point in my statement was, and still is, that weight is not the issue. Lack of lean mass, and lack of movement pattern training is.
You are incorrect that eating sufficient protein is enough to stop someone from losing muscle mass if they drop weight. At higher body fats, it is true that a person will generally lose more fat per lb of weight loss. As you get to lower body fats, even eating sufficient protein, that is no longer the case. You will NEVER lose a lb of weight and lose 100% fat. This is not going to happen. Saying it will is inaccurate.
Also, there are plenty of cases, including on this sub, where a person looks to lose weight, cuts too many calories, and loses weight, but even though they are working out, loses more muscle than fat. There have been several posts asking "what gives?" when someone gets dexa or bodpod results, before and after a cut, that show weight loss, but a higher body fat %/ much lower muscle mass following the cut. Muscle takes more for you body to sustain. If you habitually cut to many calories, it's going to go after the muscle first.
My point in my statement was, and still is, that weight is not the issue. Lack of lean mass, and lack of movement pattern training is.
johannammmm
New member
@numenorian I did say the majority of weight from fat, not 100%. There was a study over 6 months where if they followed a moderate calorie deficit they lost 91% from fat and only 7 from muscle. With regular weight training and proper nutrition (enough protein) that number could be higher. And you are incorrect again, (whether or not there were some anecdotal cases where we have no idea what their diets were like) when you lose weight and you go through your glycogen the bodies next prefered fuel is fat, THEN protein. Your body will try and preserve protein as long as it can. There have been plenty of studies about this.. You need to do some more research.
numenorian
New member
@johannammmm Fair enough on the second point. To be honest, I know better, and shouldn't type, pissed off, while half listening to a pointless conference call there is no reason for me to be on.
With that said, studies also show that the lower your body fat, the more muscle per lb you are likely to lose. At higher body fats, your are generally going to lose mostly fat, even without stellar protein intake. Especially at lower body fats, If you eat at too much of a deficit, it doesn't matter how much protein you eat, you'll lose significant muscle.
Today I strapped on 45 lbs and did a pullup. I strapped on 25 and did 2 sets of 5 chest to bars. After that, I did 40 chin ups with 5 lbs.The additional 45 lbs was the equivalent of taking myself from 20% body fat to 41%. Obviously, a weight vest doesn't add any lean mass.
This got pretty carried away, and I'm not super proud at how I handled it, but the idea that weight and height are major factors in a pull up, is wrong. They are minor factors. The major factors are body composition, distribution of muscle mass, and training. Being tall or big isn't the roadblock. Not training is the roadblock.
With that said, studies also show that the lower your body fat, the more muscle per lb you are likely to lose. At higher body fats, your are generally going to lose mostly fat, even without stellar protein intake. Especially at lower body fats, If you eat at too much of a deficit, it doesn't matter how much protein you eat, you'll lose significant muscle.
Today I strapped on 45 lbs and did a pullup. I strapped on 25 and did 2 sets of 5 chest to bars. After that, I did 40 chin ups with 5 lbs.The additional 45 lbs was the equivalent of taking myself from 20% body fat to 41%. Obviously, a weight vest doesn't add any lean mass.
This got pretty carried away, and I'm not super proud at how I handled it, but the idea that weight and height are major factors in a pull up, is wrong. They are minor factors. The major factors are body composition, distribution of muscle mass, and training. Being tall or big isn't the roadblock. Not training is the roadblock.
@numenorian The question is "My question is, would it take longer for a woman who weighs more to do one? I'm a bit scared to try really. (I'm not huge, 5'8 and 11st, but I imagine it'd be a lot to pull up)"
And the answer is possibly yes. Her lean mass has to pull up more weight than someone who was lighter or at a lower bmi. The ratio of 1lb on the body to 1lb being lifted does not matter as the only lbs doing the lifting are lean mass. A heavier woman will have generally less muscle mass, and more fat than a lean counterpart. It will be harder for her and she will have more training to do. Losing weight will make it easier as lean mass isnt pulling the higher amount of fat, while getting stronger. It does have to do with weight or size.
And the answer is possibly yes. Her lean mass has to pull up more weight than someone who was lighter or at a lower bmi. The ratio of 1lb on the body to 1lb being lifted does not matter as the only lbs doing the lifting are lean mass. A heavier woman will have generally less muscle mass, and more fat than a lean counterpart. It will be harder for her and she will have more training to do. Losing weight will make it easier as lean mass isnt pulling the higher amount of fat, while getting stronger. It does have to do with weight or size.
numenorian
New member
@hopeco There are a lot of reasons it would be harder for someone, but saying that a heavier person has less lean mass is a pretty large generalization. OP on this post weighs 15 lbs less than me, and is taller. I can knock out 17 chest to bars despite being at a higher weight, because I likely have a lot more muscle.
I find that people get really negative when it comes to pullups. They say they can't do them because they're too big. That's not true. They can't do them because they don't have enough muscle per lb, particularly in their upper body, and they don't have the movement pattern trained. There are plenty of small, thin women at my gym who have trained for months and can't do a single pullup. At the same time, there are plenty taller women, with a BMI that classifies them as overweight, who can do several.
The truth is, most women without life-long upper body training will have to work hard as hell to get a pull-up, regardless of size. Size isn't the major issue. Muscle mass per lb, and the ability to utilize it is.
Without knowing the background of this woman, you cannot say she'd have to lose weight and train harder than a smaller woman. If she's someone who lifts at a high level, she could very well have the muscle mass. If she isn't, and is carrying excess body fat, and little lean mass, than like any untrained person, it's going to take a lot of work.
It also doesn't make my statement less true. Every lb of her has to pull 1 lb. This is true of every person, at every weight. The higher weight isn't the issue. The amount of muscle per lb is.
I find that people get really negative when it comes to pullups. They say they can't do them because they're too big. That's not true. They can't do them because they don't have enough muscle per lb, particularly in their upper body, and they don't have the movement pattern trained. There are plenty of small, thin women at my gym who have trained for months and can't do a single pullup. At the same time, there are plenty taller women, with a BMI that classifies them as overweight, who can do several.
The truth is, most women without life-long upper body training will have to work hard as hell to get a pull-up, regardless of size. Size isn't the major issue. Muscle mass per lb, and the ability to utilize it is.
Without knowing the background of this woman, you cannot say she'd have to lose weight and train harder than a smaller woman. If she's someone who lifts at a high level, she could very well have the muscle mass. If she isn't, and is carrying excess body fat, and little lean mass, than like any untrained person, it's going to take a lot of work.
It also doesn't make my statement less true. Every lb of her has to pull 1 lb. This is true of every person, at every weight. The higher weight isn't the issue. The amount of muscle per lb is.
@numenorian The issue is that you claimed that because 1 lb has to pull 1lb therefore its equal is incorrect. You provided a misleading claim, that weight does not matter, that although has an element of truth to it, was not true. And on top of that, it did not really answer the question posed. You can type whatever you what here, but you just didnt answer the question and no amount of your experience will change that.
numenorian
New member
@hopeco The ratio of each lb matters, the weight itself does not. Should I have elaborated more on what that means? Probably. Is it a false statement? Not at all. It's the same with any person, and exercise. If one person can lift x amount proportional to their weight, and another can't, it's not their weight that is stopping them. What's stopping them is the % of muscle to fat, and in most cases, a lack of practice with the movement pattern. They could stay the same weight, but change that muscle to fat ratio, and practice the movement, and achieve the goal.
If the person posting this is untrained, and the person asking this question is untrained, they are probably both working with a similar situation of not enough muscle per lb, and not enough training.
If the person posting this is untrained, and the person asking this question is untrained, they are probably both working with a similar situation of not enough muscle per lb, and not enough training.
@numenorian Not true =! Entirely false.
You are not understanding the issue and I will not be furthering this conversation.
You are not understanding the issue and I will not be furthering this conversation.
numenorian
New member
@ambitiouspoetry I'm hoping you'll get some good answers because I'm about the same stats (5'2", 101lbs) and really want to be able to get my first pull-up. I was planning on running the Training for Your First Pull-up program from here and adding it on to my workouts 3x a week.
ambitiouspoetry
New member
@ambitiouspoetry probably took me a few months to be able to get one down. Negatives and lat pull down are a great way to make some progress. Now I can do maybe 10 unweighted pull-ups, and 5-6 weighted ones.