How long should be the bulking phase for a natural people. (One who don’t use any anabolics)

madmoonsam

New member
Context took the body weight from 82 to 88 . In matter of 3 months , but kinda feeling sluggish and feel like I’ve to cut now . As I’m not happy from my physique being little chubby , my pull-ups also went from 8 to 3,4 .

Anyone experienced here who usually bulk n cut , how long you guys take your bulking n cutting phase ?
PS : I’m aware of lean bulking ideology .
 
@madmoonsam There is no such rule to it.

If you’re feeling slow and sluggish now then it means you bulked up too fast and maybe gained decent amount of fat as well along the way.

The best indicator is your own self. You’re feeling now that it’s time to cut then go on a cut or simply increase your activity levels, add some cardio and bring your calories down to maintenance see how it goes.

Your food selection could be a culprit here as well, because a lot of times we tend to eat whatever we can lay our hands on in the name of bulking. Optimising your food choices could help as well.

And again, cardio is often ignored in a bulk, add it to your routine.
 
@te15 Although there is a lot of "it depends" in the answer to op's question. I wouldn't say "There is no such rule".

Feeling slow or sluggish is not a good indicator of when someone should bulk or cut, although bulking badly to get obese will give these symptoms. In general, sluggishness can be due to low testosterone or hormone imbalance or due to a myriad of things, e.g. just lacking sleep, cns fatigue etc. Adding cardio is a vague statement. General cardio like running is gonna be counterproductive to fat loss. You ideally need brisk walking or slow jogging might work, but again medium intensity or too much HIT cardio is gonna slow your metabolism and cns fatigue.

In terms of diet, you are correct. People usually go off the rails and eat either way too much or just shitty processed food. Keeping to natural foods is always best and keeping fat and protein fixed and then just adding carbs(carb cycling) is very good to do lean bulk.

Last point in a bulk cardio is ok.

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For the rule, Mike Israetael has very good info on this. In general one should lean bulk to the point where they have a slight outline to their abs. Once you can't see your abs at all, it is time for a cut. Now this was the general answer.

Technically for optimal results, one should lean bulk upto 15-17% bf percentage max, this is where pretty much everyone loses their abs. From their one should cut down to 10-12% bf. The reason for this is at around 12% bf males have most optimal hormonal profile. E.g. if you get obese, generally you are gonna have high estrogens.

Now the it depends part. Everyone is not in ideal circumstance, life happens. E.g. someone(male) who's done a crash diet with maintenance calories at 1800-2000 cals is in a stuffed up situation. Let's say that guy is at 15% bf -- no way on earth he can or should do a cut phase. So in real life, one should lean bulk upto the point where they feel like "Heck I can't eat more", at that point they can easily cut down on calories and continue the cut upto the point where they go "man I am Hungary all the time". With a few years bulk/cut cycles they will put on some muscle mass and their maintenance call will be around 2500-2700 cals.

OP's situation. 82kg to 88kg in 3 months is very bad -- 2kg in a month!! Every month at max you could have put on half kg muscle. The problem is now you gotta run a hard cut phase, where you will lose some muscle. Now generally you should cut around 0.5% to 1% per week. So the first few weeks you should go for 1%, which for you is 1kg per week. But be careful, only first few weeks, because your body is primed for fat lose atm. After that go for half a kilo max, even better 1/4kg a week. Get back to 82kg again and then go maintenance for a month and then lean bulk around 0.5kg a month.

For your(OP's) knowledge, watch Mike Israetael, Jeff Nippard, Mind pump show or Sean Naelwanyj. Even Reddit has a lot of info already. There has been some research on P-ratio, which measure how much lean mass can you gain at a given bf percentage. In other words at what bf percentage one should bulk
 
@jenfer This is a very well put nuanced comment. I appreciate it.

While I agree to a lot of stuff you said, it’s just that being a trainer I try to keep it simple for others. Because 8/10 times people end up confused and miss the point and get diverted from the main issue.

As OP said he is feeling sluggish, his pull ups number reduced also he gained 2kgs per month, it clearly indicated that he has gained a good amount of fat in the last 3 months.

Things like CNS fatigue, low test and poor sleep could be a factor too but in a way if we try to dumb it down for others, fat gain directly or indirectly contributes to all of these factors.

I agree I should have mentioned LISS cardio specifically.

Thank you.
 
@te15 I have been following you on Reddit and I can say for regular folks, the info and advice you provide is good. In OP's case, you are right, he is feeling sluggish mainly because of fat. I used to be obese and when I did a quick 10-12kg cut, I remember I was feeling lighter. I wouldn't say I was sluggish or low energy when obese, but after losing weight I was feeling more active, I could run more, do more pull ups and better mood etc. I think OP is certainly feeling a, similar to mine, sort of lethargicness because of quick weight gain, especially compared to his activeness while being lighter. Extra fat is like carrying a backpack all the time :)
 
@jenfer On here it’s important to give out information which can be easily understood.

Some are definitely more curious they DM me and I get in depth with them.
 
@te15 I know, in India people are not science savvy, they need info in layman terms. What I have seen is, there is more bro science here in India compared to developed countries. The common gym goer in western(or developed) countries appreciate science more. I'd like to be the nerdy guy in this Reddit channel that throws in some cool big technical words ;-)
 
@madmoonsam Bulk/cuts are bro science and old school. As a natural you gain 500g max lean muscle per month. Thats the natural limit. Rest is fat. If you actually gained your strength should have increased. Which is not the case I see.
Eat at smaller surplus like 300-400 calories.

Bulks only work for people who have been training for few years. Otherwise you end up losing and gaining same muscle mass.
 
@suamaytinh5s You are providing all false information. Lean bulking and cutting is still the go to way for professional athletes, both natty and enhanced. What's bro science is dirty bulking. 500g lean muscle gain is not possible for 90% of the population. Only newbies with good genetics can gain that much. Bulk is not for experienced trainees at all, the closer you are to your genetic potential the lesser surplus you use.
 
@suamaytinh5s "Bulk/cuts are bro science and old school" -- False and ambigouse. Cut phase is not bro science. "Bulk" is ambiguous, Lean-bulk is scientifically correct, dirty bulk is bro science.

"As a natural you gain 500g max lean muscle per month" -- Technically inaccurate. First off, It depends upon a person's body weight. A average newbie(~15% bf) with average genetics can gain around 0.5% (of their weight) lean muscle in the first year of their training every month. This tapers off with time, so in the second year a guy will get around 0.25% muscle gain per month. E.g. A 70kg guy at around 15% body fat, will get 350grams per month in his initial months and then after a year he will gain 175gm per month. Now these are just average numbers. But, only genetic freaks, 5-10% of the population e.g., will gain 500gms per month.

"Bulks only work for people who have been training for few years" -- Now you are completely contradicting yourself. You said earlier bulk is bro science. As a matter of fact. Muscle and strength gain follows the principle of diminishing returns. For a guy who's been training for a few years, he has to be very diligent with their bulk. Anything more that 200-250cals a day is gonna be fat, again depends upon bf.
 
@jenfer You are saying the same thing I said. I am aware of what you are saying. I was just dumbing down relevent info in short. Every post here is almost bro sciency. Can't correct everyone.

For the last incorrect statement. I didn't condradict myself. When I say bulks work for experienced. Its referring to muscle they lost, which they gain back again by muscle memory.

Dude you should comment here often. I see so much misinformation here. Even mods don't seem to mind to correct it.
 
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