Looking for advice , resources, tips or encouragement on overcoming definition plateaus and bodybuilding

[zach2]

Hello, 32m 6'1, 175lbs currently. I lifted on/off my whole life, took about a 6 year break (sporadic sessions) after college and got back into it about 2 years ago. I'm struggling reconciling some things about growing muscles and would like to hear your opinions on what else I can do to speed up the muscle building process.

My main concern is how long it's taking for me to grow. I've been in the 170-200 range my whole adult life. When I started finally consistently going 3-4x a week a year ago I was 205lbs. In august last year, I felt like I hit a plateau with incrementing resistance so I decided to do a cut on a strict diet and got down to 170lbs and 13% body fat (dexa scan) by the end of last year. I still felt like I grew muscles during my cut for some reason and lifts remained the same. According to the Dexa scan I have 150lbs of muscle, but I feel like barely any of it is skeletal muscle. After the new year started I switched to bulking and have finally gained about 7lbs in the last few weeks and lifts are improving again - but I'm starting to think it's mostly fat. As of now, my lifts are all higher than they've ever been, squatting 205 for 8 reps x 3 sets easily as compared to 135 a year ago. Benching 185 x 6-8 reps 3-4 sets as compared to 135 x8 a year ago, bicep curls went from 30lb dumbbells to 45lb dumbbells.

However, appearance wise I'm struggling to not believe that I basically look identical to a year ago. When I'm not flexing in the mirror I feel like I look exactly like I did when i was 205ls and probably 18% body fat (except for a flatter stomach).

I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong when I see people's results after they start working out for like 3-6 months - you can visually see their muscles grew by like 1.5-2x. I see guys at the gym that are much more muscular (like twice the size of biceps and 3x the size of pecs) than me doing slightly above or similar to the weights I'm doing (i'm not sacrificing on form either). Sometimes I wonder how long they have been lifting to get so big and I guess I just don't want to believe that it will take me like 5+ years to get to their size at the rate I'm going. To be fair, this is my first actual bulk that I'm doing - I've never been in a caloric surplus while lifting before as I didn't understand how important diet was and thought I was just genetically predisposed to not gain muscle.

I'm just frustrated that for the last 6 months I feel like I've been doing everything right: eating the right foods, tracking calories, tracking workouts, incrementing my resistance, adding volume, prioritizing 7-8 hours of sleep over social events, taking supplements, eating 160-250 g of protein daily, switching up lifts every 3 months, yet I feel like i look very similar (like 10% bigger muscles) to how I did when I didn't work out at all 2 years ago...

I did get my testosterone tested recently and it's on the low end (you would think a year of exercise, good diet, adequate sleep would help but it didn't), is that basically the difference?

What else can be done? Do i just have to accept that getting ripped is not something I can do if I commit 100% to it for a year and instead just accept that it will take multiple years to dramatically change my body and I may never be one of those big guys at the gym?

 

[benjaminthewolf]

@zach2 It's a long road for sure. I've been lifting for about 10 years now with very few breaks - at least one bulk/cut cycle a year if not multiple, started at 150lbs @ 6'2" and ended up around 230(ish). I do have visible abs at that bodyweight, but I'm lucky and they show up at higher than usual body fat percentages.

Anyhow, I think I gained the most in that first years monster bulk from 150 to 250 - I ended up cutting back down to 185 that round. I typically bulk back up to 250 and then back down to around 220 (ish). I don't compete so have no desire to get even remotely close to 10% - I'd rather look big/yoked in clothes than small but shredded, so there is that to consider.

If you got your Test checked but it was anywhere near the bottom of your cut, it's likely your T levels would be lower - it's the bane of being a natural, everything from how lean you are, your diet, how much or little sleep you get, all has an impact on T levels. It's why exogenous T is so powerful even if not pushed to supraphysiologic levels - you get the benefit of having stable levels no matter what you do or don't do.

 

[zach2]

@benjaminthewolf Thanks for that. I think I'm just overthinking because I'm about 6 weeks into my first real bulk of my life and was expecting to have more beginner gains during a cut which doesn't seem like the right expectation to have.

 

[johnc101]

@zach2 yes, you'll likely have to accept that it will take multiple years to build a dramatic amount of muscle - especially on a taller frame. if you were a genetic freak, you would know by now - so the only recourse you have is patience, consistency, and adherence.

besides that, you've been bulking for 1.5 months - what exactly did you expect? you're 6'1 175lbs - go look at others with similar stats and similar lifts - they're not exactly going to be impressive. so, the actionable advice is to keep bulking (200-205lb is where you should be spending the vast majority of your time if you want productive training towards dramatically changing your physique) and get very strong across various exercises and rep ranges so you can provide more and more progressive stimulus to your musculature. once you start lifting much more significant weights, that's when the changes are going to be more noticeable - and the only way to get there is patience, consistency, adherence.

 

[zach2]

@johnc101 i guess i was looking at others who have similar lifts but have much more rounded muscles on a stockier frame whereas mine are long, hard, and thin.

I'm afraid that when i was at 205 I basically held it mostly in my stomach.. that's why i decided to cut. I'm worried that by the time I do my first bulk to that weight it's still going to go to my stomach or it's going to take years to do it cleanly. Guess all I can do is keep chugging along and fall in love with the process.

My inital goal was to get 6 pack abs that showed when I'm not flexing but I feel like cutting any more below 170 at 13% would've made me look too thin to be healthy.

 

[sports]

@zach2 https://www.calculator.net/bmr-calc...&coutunit=c&cformula=m&cfatpct=20&x=Calculate

For your build (hardgainer) you should be eating 3500 cal/day workout days and 2800 cal day non workout days. The weekly calorie total is more important than the daily goal

Also you haven't been working out very long "been working out my whole life / took 6 years off after college / now 32 / been lifting 3-4 times a week for a year"..... so you've been relatively consistent for about year. Sporadic lifting won't get you good gains. Consistency is key!!!

If you want to see faster growth, be consistent. Hit every muscle group 2x/week. That's 6 days of lifting and hitting muscle groups every 3 days (72hrs between same muscle group). You can grow hitting every group 1x/wk, just not as fast.

Supplementation recoomendation:
5g creatine/day
3g Arginine/day
5g glutamine/day
50g casein shake at bedtime

 

[zach2]

@sports Thank you! I'm trying to accept not worrying about the fat gain and i think i could get to those calorie amounts soon.

Do you think hitting muscle groups 2x a week would lead to more gains than 3x a week if the weekly set total amounts are the same? I haven't been able to determine if the extra rest or the higher frequency leads to more muscle mass growing.

 

[sports]

@zach2 Muscles grow when you're not working out. You break down muscle tissue in the gym. The body builds it back stronger to compensate for heavier/more load. 2x a week is plenty. The only thing would hit 3x a week is abs, and then only if they're not sore. They're a great exercise to throw in between heavy chest or back sets for that extra rest time while not wasting that rest period.

 

[needheaven]

@zach2 I'm a little confused here, your title mentions plateaus but then you said "As of now, my lifts are all higher than they've ever been". Sounds like you are doing things right so just continue?

 

[zach2]

@needheaven I realized after writing that I shouldn't have expected to increase lifts while in a cut even though i thought I was still a beginner. Yet, biceps and back feel like they're stuck in plateau even 6 weeks into a bulk. Chest is taking a few weeks to increase resistance and I'm afraid adding more volume (upping to 30+ sets a week) isn't the right move.

 

[mahlonritt]

@zach2 In my experience, and opinion, it takes quite some time before you notice changes that make you go ˝I've put on some lean muscle˝ when lifting naturally. That becomes ever so true for people who start out with a tall and relatively slender frame. I'm kinda similar to you, 6'2'' (188cm) and started out mid 2021 at around 160-165 lbs (72-74 kg). Was definitely skinny fat back and saw barely any progress by Fall 2022 because I was just sort of doing whatever and not tracking my nutrition.

Then I switched to a PPL split, started tracking calories and macros, and went from 171 lbs (78kg) at around 17% BF to 187 lbs (85kg) at as low as 13% in Nov/Dec 2023 (BF% are guesses based on appearance, so take them with a grain of salt). Now on a lean bulk, and I finally can say that my muscles are starting to look filled out.

Keep in mind that I'm quite a bit younger than you at the age of 25.

Even recently I still feel like I only look like there's some muscle on my when I'm wearing really fitter clothes and shirtless. Not saying that I'm unhappy with the progress, but looking big as a relatively tall natural seems to be kinda hard.

A few things to consider. You said you've been lifting on and off for much of your life. While you did take a long break you did still sometime train, as fair as I understand. Maybe someone can correct or back me up, but you're unlikely to see those sort of 1.5-2x newbie gains because your body is already adapted.

What is your carb intake? I personally notice that while I was still gaining toward the end of last year my muscles increasingly looked flat. As soon as I introduced a bit more carbs on the bulk my muscles suddenly looked significantly larger/fuller, as if they were starved of glycogen consistently.

Finally, I found it much easier to consider lifting as a very long term endeavor. Find small milestones in terms of strength and size to look forward to and achieve every few weeks/months to keep you going. The important thing is that after your look at photos or remember yourself after a year, two, or three, you go ˝I look and feel significantly better now˝.

 

[zach2]

@mahlonritt Thank you for that! Guess i'm not the only one with a hard time.

I agree, it's definitely a long term endeavor, I love the mental benefits from staying consistent though, i feel so much better than I did a year ago and have so much more energy. I'm going to slowly keep increasing my cal intake so I will add in more carbs. I don't think I've been eating enough my whole life and it's just the mental shift in attitude towards food that's challenging.

 

[mahlonritt]

@zach2 No problem man.

It's really the typical 'marathon, not a race' type of deal. The mental benefits have been huge for me too. As someone who struggle with mental health issues, and still do, the gym has been an incredible way to have a consistent goal, sense of accomplishment, and escape. And that's before I even consider the confidence boost from feeling stronger and looking better.

Yeah, just experiment with small increases and decreases in caloric intake. You'll see pretty easily what your body needs/wants and how it changes. I'd say try and keep it consistent throughout a week. Something I've done in the past is lower my intake on rest days, but as of late have been feeling like it reduced recovery and might take away from some gains. Muscles do grow most when they're getting repaired/adapting in off time. Maybe you can go like 100-150 cal lower on rest days, because more might mess with you figuring out what amount actually works for your maintenance/deficit/surplus.

 

[josieyy]

@zach2 Man I don’t have much to add, other people have said good stuff. I’m in a similar feeling boat though. Let’s just keep trooping on and focus on the process, let the results come

 

[dymesgirl]

@zach2 So, I'm 50, and have been lifting fairly consistently for over 30 years, so the perspective I speak of is from having gone through my thirties, lifetime natural. First, in my experience the idea (which you didn't voice, but it's out there) that strength diminishes after the glory years of your twenties is mistaken. I got plenty strong in my thirties. What did change however was my ability to gain muscle without adding some padding. The old adage that "you can get big, or you can get cut" proves out once the metabolism enters the lean back and chill years. I actually would eat wholesome foods with abandon until my lifting belt got too tight at the setting I kept it at, and then I would diet. I never strived for extreme leanness, so your goals may differ than mine have been. But I was able to drop the pounds consistently, well into my forties. It's getting damned hard now, but so it goes.

My two cents would be that you are focusing overly closely on weight gain right now. Build up some satisfying strength achievements with a hypertrophy program (not an oxymoron), then run your cut. I personally found that my body preferred a relatively high-frequency program, such as Meadows's Gamma Bomb, to a 4x/week or the like. The development of endurance capacities by keeping rest times strict (I like GZCL/J&T2.0 strategies here) helped keep energy expenditure burning, and allowed me to elongate my bulk for quite a bit longer than has been the case when I ran programs with less frequency.

One thing that helped me keep the training fires lit, and my aggression at the bar high, was looking at how friends my age were faring. At about 35, decay starts to really snowball for non-active people. Regardless of whether or not you are progressing as dramatically as you would like right now, you are banking immense benefits for years now in the middle distance. Play the long game, and you will be looking like a boss when you hit 40.

 

[raykem]

@zach2 That's already a big win. It sounds like you've got your routine dialed in pretty tight, but sometimes the gains just don't show up as fast as we want them to. Don't sweat it too much, though. Building muscle is a marathon, not a sprint.

With your dedication and all the effort you're putting in, you're definitely on the right track. Maybe try mixing things up a bit more, like tweaking your workout split or trying different exercises. And hey, low testosterone can be a bummer, but it's not the end-all-be-all. Keep pushing, stay patient, and you'll get there.

 

[itsjoseph]

@zach2 What is your current program and macros?

 

[zach2]

@itsjoseph W/F/Sun - alternating exercises out of 7-10 sets of chest press (incline/decline one day straight next),5 sets pullups-seated rows, 3-6 sets cable delt raises - shoulder press, 3-5 sets barbel curls - dumbell/cable curls.

Sat leg day with 7 sets of pyramid squats, 4 sets of calf raises, 3 sets of deadlifts.

I would usually start at 2-3 sets with a heavy weight and once I get to 5 sets easily at that weight increase resistance on 2-3 sets out of the 5 sets next session then repeat.

When i was cutting, i was doing low carb, like

 

[itsjoseph]

@zach2 Your training protocol is the issue. When you cut you also were eating very little for that activity level. It’s quite possible you lost muscle on that cut.

I can sort it out for you if you would like.

 

[peaceablefruit]

@zach2 I suggest following a proven program like the recommended routines on thefitness.wiki and eating too grow.

You could probably cut on 2400kcal a day, sounds like you cut too hard.