Strongfirst GPP

G

goat

New member
So I've been doing kettlebells for about 2 years now (primerally hardstyle) and lifting for around 5. In that time I've experimented with many modalities and styles of training. My main goals for the majority of the time have been geared towards s&c for grappling.

I discovered strongfirst when I got into kettlebells and I really liked their ethos on training for everyone that doesn't burn you out and an emphasis on GPP (I still do like this approach).

However over time I've come to view strongfirst through a more critical lens, especially their programming.

So generally when it comes to GPP training the idea is to build up general attributes across the board (strength, endurance, cardiovascular fitness, flexibility etc.). What I usually see is athletes focusing on areas that they either don't have time for or are neglected by their regular in season training while building a base to build off of once the season starts a new.

For the most part this results in a program that resembles a bodybuilding program with a good amount of cardio to build out your base, as well as in some cases high rep calisthenics circuits to build work capacity and mobility routines. The common trend in all athletic GPP programs tends to be a high exercise selection, which makes logical sense given that you're not looking to specialise in a GPP phase.

Why is it then that the vast majority of strongfirst programs take the approach of a low exercise selection (e.g. kettlebell snatch and clean+press, or kettlebell swing and tgu). Surely this makes them specialised programs not GPP.

I'm saying this myself as someone who followed strongfirst programming for the best part of a year. The only program I really felt gave me real benefits in terms of GPP was Q&D, reason for this is that its to he done in addition to standard training and S&C Programming.

I need to clarify I don't think S&S and RoP (amongst other SF programs) aren't bad programs and I think people will get benefits from them. Specifically both programs lead to a good amount of explosiveness in the hinge movement pattern and respectively great shoulder mobility, stability and stiff arm strength from the TGU and good overhead pressing (vertical pulling too if you included pullups) in the case of the clean and press.

However these aren't really general attributes, infact I'd argue these programs are specialised for learning kettlebell skills and building the attributes related to said movements.

I'd love to get other people's opinions on this, because I've experienced alot of die hards when it comes to SF that use alot of flawed logic when someone criticises SF. I'd love to gave an open a nuanced discussion about this.
 
@goat You make a good point. I say the issue you raise is the issue with minimalist programs in nature.

I'd also like to point out that a lot of strongfirst people you see with amazing results don't really workout how is often advertised online. I've been working with @ngie for pretty much 2 years now almost? Close to it & they use their impression of Strongfirst Plan Strong format & Strong Endurance.

Some of those plans are the opposite of minimalist. They are downright maximalist. Zone 2 cardio, max effort sprint intervals, max outs weekly in my 1RM & every other rep range imaginable.

They put out a lot of minimalist gpp content but once you dig further into their systems, you start coming up with very complete programs.

But yeah, I think your takeaway is good. A lot of the strongfirst popular programs become getting very good at exercising with certain moves using the kettlebell, as opposed to being as physically prepared as possible. Things like Jumps, sprints & throws are completely absent of the programs & rail roads many of the programs use to block off progression come off as very arbitrary and odd. Simple & Sinister to 32kg before you take up Rite of passage? Why? Makes no sense.

Something like Tactical Barbell II with Strongfirst Program progressions, though - that's a good GPP program. Hitting the easy cardio paired with Q&D, Rite of Passage as my strength day & Simple & Sinister on my HIC paired with one of the HIC in the book progressed me wicked fast like 2 years ago. And it was fun. Got me to a 1:40:00 half marathon, timeless Sinister, 41kg press on both sides & the leanest I'd been in years.
 
@ant0099
[...] rail roads many of the programs use to block off progression come off as very arbitrary and odd. Simple & Sinister to 32kg before you take up Rite of passage? Why? Makes no sense.
Click to expand...

I hate it when people gatekeep fitness like that. S&S may not be to someone's liking (and I don't think it's even great to begin with).

Similarly, I've heard people talking about how you must be able to do 20 perfect pushups or whatever before you start benching. For a scrawny teenager that may take a few weeks, but for an overweight 45-year old who's just starting out it may take years, and they would've gotten there faster if they'd done some benching on top of the pushup training.
 
@ant0099 Really curious to learn more about your tactical barbell routine. AFAIK Tactical barbell rotates 4 types of routines: (1) max strength, (2) endurance, (3) strength endurance, and (4) high intensity cardio. Could you clarify which of these you are using kettlebells for and what your weekly routine looks like? Thank you!
 
@dboruff11 Its a bit complicated & I've got a write up on it somewhere.

But essentially I did two things. I first started with a block inspired by Krypteia from 531. I would set a 45 minute timer & the goal would be to hit 75 clean & presses on Day A. or 75 double kb front squats on Day B. Every time I had to drop the bells on clean & press Day I would do either 10 swings or 10 goblets with the 48kg. On Day b. Every time I had to drop I did 5 pull ups & 8 dips if I remember. I progressed based on time. So I'd just go as fast as humanly possible.

I treated those blocks as the strength days & did the Operator Black format. But I essentially doubled up on conditoning sessions. So instead of just 1 HIC I would do an HIC usually the 5k option paired with Quick & the Dead or S&S.

I applied that same methodology to when I added in Rite of Passage, I stopped doing Krypteia & instead would do Rite of Passage with front squats in some way but I forget how I programmed the FS. Maybe the same as the presses.

At that point I also did S&S like every day I could because I wanted to get timeless Sinister.

It's pretty losely following it, but if you map it out, it fits.

It would be like

M Strength + HIC / T Endurance + S&S / W Strength + HIC / TH Endurance + HIC + S&S / F Strength + HIC
 
@ant0099 Thanks so much for sharing, this is super helpful! The routine you describe sounds very intense, and my concern is that you didn't have sufficient time for rest and recovery during the week, but it sounds like it worked out pretty well for you I guess?
 
@goat Some very good points there.

What I will say is that clean & jerk or clean & press + front squat covers the majority of your muscles.

Something like Dry Fighting Weight has you doing a bunch of C&P + front squats. It's advertised as a fat loss program, but if you eat in a surplus you can absolutely get stronger and build muscle, and increase workout density which gives you some work capacity and conditioning.

You're getting a lot of benefits for 3x30 minutes a week (although it lacks some dedicated cardio, higher rep work, a dedicated pull, chest work, and mobility if you're into that).

The only program I really felt gave me real benefits in terms of GPP was Q&D, reason for this is that its to he done in addition to standard training and S&C Programming.
Click to expand...

In my opinion that kind of minimalist training does two things well. First, it gives you something you can do if you don't have the time for something more involved. Second, they can give you a base to add things to, and can make you improve fast in what you're specialising in. And you can always switch to a different specialised program afterwards.

For example, The Giant is just straight up a great C&P program. I've done it for C&P, double kb snatches and front squats concurrently, supersetting each exercise with other stuff (snatch/burpees/chinups; C&P/chinups; front squat/swings/situps), with a bunch of running and barbell and bodyweight stuff on top of it.

Geoff Neupert advertises The Giant as a complete program in itself. It absolutely covers a lot of bases (but not all of them), and is probably excellent as a standalone if you're short on time or have a lot of other life stressors.
 
@hunter101 DFW remix is a thing for this reason.

Was thinking the other day of swapping out the push-ups for dips in the Q&D. Also making a pull version of it by swapping in pull-ups or rows. Might be too difficult to do 20 dips/pull-ups per 6 min round for some people, but you can start with low reps and slowly build up the volume.

Then do an (ABA, BAB) biweekly schedule with Q&D push and pull sessions, in addition to standard DFW 3 days a week.

You’ve got pretty much everything covered in a 6 day weekly program.
 
@goat Super astute observations.
Coming from a powerlifting background, I instantly recognized the SF programming to be simplified copies of other popular programs like “The Strongest Shall Survive” by Bill Starr written in 1976, Bulgarian method and Westside barbell. They incorporate some breathing techniques from karate and it’s sort of a hodgepodge of things that the RKC founders were in to. I felt it lacked depth of knowledge on on true Kettlebell training and GPP. It wasn’t until following the rabbit hole and finding guys like Cotter, Fedorenko, Rudnev, Rachinski, Denison, Vasilev and so on that I found the information I was looking for. Early RKC instructors had similar experiences and the group had a large exodus to other more qualified Russian coaches. This was back when RKC was more true to what is taught in the Russian military and not what’s being branded as “hardstyle “ now.
 
@goat So, I haven’t done any of the Strongfirst programs from beginning to end as intended. I followed Built Strong Minimalist more faithfully, but only for a month to get back into training after a long break. Was still doing more training on off days. What works best for me is something I need to discover through experimentation and so I program my training myself.

However, there are some concepts I relate a lot to. The name firstly, “strong first”. As a fast twitch guy, that just fits my nature.

The Anti-glycolitic training makes sense to me too. I took inspiration from this to manage my volume and rest so that I can train 6 days a week while feeling fresh. Somewhat related to the auto-regulation of Jeff Neupert.

The waveform training, which you have to dig a bit more for to learn about. Light days and heavy days, by volume or load or both, makes sense.

The obsession with kettlebells. I personally wish I discovered them years ago. The WTH effect is real. So I definitely recommend them as much as Strongfirst does. I think everyone in this subreddit would too.

A thing to note though is that the programs you referenced are not the be all and end all of Strongfirst. It may look like it at first, but the those who go deep in the community have been to seminars to learn to program for themselves and clients and also are exposed to protocols to train real athletes or figure out a protocol using their concepts to help you in your endeavour as an athlete. They’ve spent more money too and read a lot of material. Do you think Andy Bolton followed S&S to break a deadlift world record? The article about him shared his protocol for doing heavy swings but not any of his other training schedule.

So who are the protocols above for? People who like minimalism and simplicity. People who don’t want to think too much and just want to be able to experience progress. People who see the appeal of achievements like “timed sinister”. People short on time. People who want to train regularly without being sore. People who only have kettlebells available. People who are out of shape who need a practice in discipline more so than specific exercises. All in effort to get strong by some measures.

In terms of GPP are they complete? No of course not. You can’t be complete and minimalist at the same time, but are the exercises selected good choices? Arguably yes. Many fitness tests incorporate push-ups. They definitely have a lot of carry over. The swing is arguably one of the best exercises ever. I’ve seen this repeated often and felt it myself. It works the whole body especially when done heavy and one-handed. The TGU although slow and boring in my eyes is touted as one of the best exercises for grapplers and makes sense to practice it as one ages because it simulates getting up from the floor or out of bed. It’s in the name. Also many claim it fixed their shoulder issues like magic.

Also worth mentioning that GPP for an athlete is different to GPP for normies who just don’t want to be fatigued picking up their kids and carrying groceries to their kitchen from their cars.

So are these protocols perfect? No. Do they have their place? Yes. Are they useful for BJJ? For the hobbyist, maybe. For anyone serious, probably not.
 
@goat Your points are fair, but let's not forget that there is a very fuzzy line between "% of muscles used in a given exercise" and "specialization". This discussion can get pedantic fast.

Generically, I take GPP workouts as workouts that hit greater than 50% of your muscles or is a core movement that is utilized in many different movements. If a single movement doesn't meet that definition, it's specialized and needs to be paired with others to get you to your goal.

The Hip Hinge is a very core movement- not just defined by Pavel alone. Look at Peter Attia's book Outlive- he specifically calls out the hip hinge as a core movement required for training if you seek to extend your healthspan (as opposed to lifespan). I am inclined to agree, there's a lot of actions in a lot of sports that require that specific motion.

The thing with Pavel is that his philosophy on training is that one should START with the minimum, (Q&D, Axe, S&S, ROP...) then start adding on what training you need to in order to achieve your goal. His plans are sculpted to be a foundational exercise, not the end-all be-all exercise.

Keeping in mind what kind of workout plans he's designing and aligning it with what a you want to achieve is the difference maker when it comes to being satisfied with his training plans or unsatisfied.

In summary, his plans work great if they're aligned with your goals, and they're too basic if they don't align with your goals. That's acceptable in my book.
 
@goat GPP is cardiovascular training too. When doing cardiovascular training, you have to make sure that you also put low intensity long-term, continuous stress on the heart and don't just do interval training. If you only do interval training or only strength training, then you are training for imbalances in your heart. This is not good in the long term, neither for performance nor for health. So any GPP program needs to include a reasonable amount of low intensity endurance training where you perform continuous low intensity movements such as swimming, running, cycling, rowing. Just a few movements can not replace that.
 
@goat I think you are quite correct here as I would not categorise SF programs as GPP unless someone is doing it straight off the couch and has no training base.
GPP is generally a higher rep / bodybuilding/ body weight/ muscle imbalance phase which gives athletes a break from their normal movement patterns found in their sport -,together with some maintenance or improvement in their aerobic base.

Most SF programs are more minimalist strength programming for people who may work full time with a wife and family or are just getting back into training- in those cases the SF programs will be GPP for them and make them better at getting out of a chair or hauling a bag of rocks into the backyard. I would definitely not rely on SF ‘GPP’ to get me on the national team though!

To me SF programs are great for using as a base to build other stuff off of, to challenge yourself to get to certain ‘sinister’ standard or great for you to maintain superior strength and athleticism relative to the 99% of everyday dudes sitting on the couch smashing beers and pretzels!!

It will probably not improve performance for already highly trained athletes though unless it strengthens a glaring weak point imho but it will make you better than the 99% of the population doing nothing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top