Struggling with progress/gains

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mattellis

New member
I started out on Geoff Neuperts 12 week program with 12kg (a little light) and then completed The Giant 1.0 with 16kg

Currently running 1.1 with the 16kg

I just don't feel like I've gained ANY muscle considering I've been training for 6 months now

I'm thinking of switching programs to something a little more "bodybuilding"

I was thinking of keeping the programming base the same but mixing in other stuff

Eg:

Workout A
- Clean and press autoregulated for 30mins, possibly following The Giant rep scheme and changing each time I perform workout A
- Chin ups - 3 sets to failure, increase until I hit 10 strict reps and then add weight
- Curls/tricep superset

Workout B
- Swings perform 100 reps in as fewer sets as possible
- Squats? I haven't figured out a rep/training idea for these yet, not a fan of sets to failure on squats so advice sought here
- Lateral raises 3 sets to failure

Perform this alternated MWF

Any thoughts?
 
@mattellis If you're following a well respected program, increased in strength but haven't gained weight, your eating is likely your #1 issue, not your program.
 
@mattellis So you don't feel like you're gaining muscle. Are you gaining weight to begin with? Are you eating to grow?

Your plan looks decent - my only worry is that you'd be dropping the frequency for C&P a lot. You could modify it to have The Giant every workout, followed by:
  • A: Chinups, curls, triceps, as outlined
  • B: Swings, squats, lateral raises. Swings and lateral raises as you've described - squats could be 3-5 sets with 2 reps in reserve.
Alternatively, you could give it the DFW Remix treatment, with squats as part of the Remix part of the program.

As another alternative, I recently did what I called The Hydra. Every gym workout I'd do:
  • 30 minutes of The Giant for double kb snatch
  • 30 minutes of The Giant
  • 30 minutes of The Giant for double kb front squat
  • Often I'd do some barbell work, dips or weighted chinups at the end. Sometimes I didn't feel like it.
  • Towards the end I'd superset the exercises. Snatch/burpees/chinups, C&P/chinups, squats/double swings/situps.
On top of that something like 150-160 daily chinups. None of the chinup sets were to failure - it was a matter of just accumulating a ton of easy volume.

I had my best growth in years following that plan. You can obviously scale it down - maybe start with 30 minutes of C&P, 15 minutes of double kb front squats, and 30 daily chinups.
 
@roseprince Steal away!

It was basically me doing The Giant, having fun with it, and then wondering what would happen if I started doing it for front squats too... and then for double snatches... and the last 3-4 weeks I added other exercises as supersets.

I'm definitely going to run it again - but currently I'm focusing on single kb snatch, so it's only The Giant + Giant Squats.

You may want to build up to it in some way. It probably wouldn't have been sustainable if I jumped straight into it, but adding another chunk every 4 weeks worked great. An alternative might be to start with shorter time blocks for each exercise and then steadily increase.

Also remember to eat enough to offset it. And listen to your body - I managed to go up to 5 days in a week a couple of times, including 4 days in a row, but find out where your tolerance for volume and frequency is (and don't be afraid to push a bit beyond - those tolerances are themselves trainable).
 
@mattellis 1 take progress pictures. 2 try to weigh yourself a few times a week. 3 eat to gain weight.

That said, I really like adding in chins, arm work, and lateral raises. I’ve done it on tons of Geoff’s programs. IMO, you can bang 100 swings outs in five to ten minutes. Squats are fine too. I’d still shoot to clean and press three days a week, run your accessories, and get swings and squats in whenever you have the energy.
 
@mattellis As others have said caloric and protein intake should be your focus and yes some of that will be fat. Strength is a bulk based phase. Not all of that bulk will be muscle. You must eat in a major surplus to grow.

Sleep is just as important. That is when your body provides natural testosterone, muscle and tissue repair and adaptation to your strength building.

I enjoy kbs but only as supplemental exercises to barbell training. My strength just never changed much with solely using kbs. In just 3 months of Starting Strength linear progression my strength and muscle has skyrocketed comparably.

I do plan to reintegrate kbs into my routine once my Starting Strength program ends. But they never provided me the growth that I was looking for as consistent weight increases are not possible with kbs like it is with barbells. Moving increased weight is what has changed my strength and muscle most.
 
I have gained weight but have gained fat too

Huge difference dropping clean and press from 3x a week to 2x?

I'll experiment for a few weeks, see what clicks, thanks for you help
 
@mattellis Have you measured your arms etc, or compared photos from before you started? Or done any body comp analysis? It can be hard to see changes in muscle mass, particularly if you think you've gained fat too.
 
@mattellis Stress / Recovery / Adaptation is the key concept here.

After 6 month the 16kg Bell can't give you enough stress to influence homoastasis. So the adaptation won't be huge. You have to move up in weights so the stress caused by the higher weight is disrupting the homoastasis and leeds to a better adaptation. With lighter weights you can train better for endurance with 15+ reps. If you use i lighter weight which you could press for 15+ reps but stay with it in a 5-10 rep range the weight you are using is submaximal and the stress is not enough let your body grew muscle (and strength).

If you want to use Kettlebells than i would suggest doing the Rite of Passage (RoP). There you could easily implement the Chinups. Or stay with the Giant. But in both cases try to quickly move up in weights and your body will grow bigger than working with light weights.
 
@mattellis Hot take, I don't think kbs are the best for building show off muscles, that being said, you have gotten stronger in the last 6 mo. but you're still using light weight generally speaking. Different types of strength, you built muscles that are more 'go' than 'show'.

I didn't really see that much of a difference in the mirror until I worked up my way to using 24's for C+P, but I'm still a far cry from huge. I also didn't gain any serious visible muscle gain from swings either, so double front squats would be better in my opinion.

I'm definitely stronger, I just don't look particularly swole or huge, but that's not my goal. If it's pure aesthetic muscle gain you're after, a more bodybuilding approach using progressive overload principles would be better, i.e. focusing on continually going up in weight, start working with 20's instead of doing Giant 1.1 with 16's for example.
 
@belovedsone Yeah you're right

It's easy to get sucked in following kettlebell programming like The Giant etc

Truth is, I probably am better running 1.0 with 20s and focus on bringing the strength up faster

Running 1.1 with 24 or 28s in a year's time will give me much better results if I can get there faster I imagine
 
@mattellis It's also harder to move up in weight using C+P, I made much faster gains in weight doing grinds like double strict press, double front squats; exercises that are more akin to actual bodybuilding barbell exercises.

12 week muscle building program using progressively heavier weight and adding weighted chinups when you're able sounds better to me than Giant. Someone else mentioned Rite of Passage, that could work too.

As much as I love the C+P, it's not the best tool for building muscle fast.
 
@mattellis Depends on a few things. You've gotten stronger but not a lot of mass gain.

Something's to consider:
  1. Are you eating enough calories and protein?
  2. Are you sleeping enough? If not between 7to8 then recovery is impeded
  3. Are you using double bells ? Giant was meant mostly to do with two bells, it can be done with one but two is more effective
  4. Did you test your RM before starting? Your training stimulus might not be high enough
  5. Giant 1.0 isn't really geared toward mass gain. At least not the first part.
  6. Kb aren't the absolute optimal way to gain mass. You can gain with them,yes but they're just an implement there exists more optimal programming and implements for said gain
 
@sozo1517 I'd have to retest but prior to the giant 1.0 it was 16kg give or take

I can "probably" squeeze 15-16 out of it now but I'd have to retest

I may just bite the bullet and grab a couple of 20s
 
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