5/3/1 For Oldsters - Part 2 - Don’t abuse the “+” sets

[notsonicely]

@timhieuvetrello Well, as some one who lifts at meets, it is important to me to know what my actual 1RMs are (at least for squat / bench / deadlift.)

If I were able to increase "rep maxes" (which I was, because I never bothered with more than 5 reps for main lifts before 5/3/1) but not able to increase actual 1RMs (which is what happened), then clearly the program was not particularly useful.

 

[timhieuvetrello]

@notsonicely As I said, your experience with 5/3/1 seems to have been highly atypical.

 

[carlitg]

@timhieuvetrello

edit -- It does occur to me that I don't explain this the best way.

Maybe try drawing line graphs or something?

 

[chadthehoser]

@timhieuvetrello

I don't explain this the best way

I don't think you're doing too bad. It can also be thought of as intensity increasing over time, not unlike a linear or block periodization.

 

[notsonicely]

@jellybug78 Here is a handy table for rep ranges for a given % of a TRUE 1RM (not a training max.)

https://imgur.com/TbJTYfe

I had no luck whatsoever following 5/3/1, and I do not think that 3 sets per lift per month working in these optimal rep ranges (note that none of the warmup sets come anywhere close to this range by any of the 3 models used in the linked table) is sufficient to drive adaptation if you are already reasonably strong.

For example, for a given lift on week one of 5/3/1, you would warm up with whatever you want, then are prescribed to hit 5 reps at 65% of your training max. This is actually ~59% of your true 1RM, which is a percentage too low to be addressed by 2 of the 3 models in the table above, and which you should be able to hit for 15 reps or more according to the 3rd model. This set is not likely to drive any gains in strength or size, as it is telling you to only hit 1/3rd (at best) of the volume you would need with this weight. This set is a warm up.

Your next set would then be 5 reps at 75% of your training max. This is actually ~68% of your true 1RM, and all 3 models suggest hitting that for at least 10 reps. This set is not likely to drive any gains in strength or size, as it is telling you to only hit 1/2 (at best) of the volume you would need with this weight. This set is another warm up.

Finally you get to your top set, which is 5+ at 85% of your training max. This is actually ~77% of your true 1RM, which should put you in the 7-9 rep range. So you blast out something like 10 reps and pat yourself on the back for making yet another "rep PR." Great. You've done one single set that was worth your time. Hope you made the most of it -- you won't be doing another one for a full 7 days! (14 days if you "de-load" every 4th week!)

Anyway, that's my 2 cents (again) on the 5/3/1 program. If it works for you, then great -- keep at it! But it is not a magical one-size-fits-all routine, and I absolutely floundered on it and got weaker.

 

[chadthehoser]

@notsonicely

5 reps at 65% of your training max

Calculating and tracking these silly sets are what drove me most crazy. It took me way longer than it should have to realize that these sets are so light that it doesn't matter how much goes on the bar. No point in typing it into a spreadsheet, it's just a warmup.

 

[gbhar]

@chadthehoser http://www.blackironbeast.com is your friend. But I agree that precise warmups are not a big deal.

 

[rashpal]

@timhieuvetrello Timely post.

I recently started 5/3/1 and have been thinking a lot about how many reps to do on the last set. So far I've done 7 on deadlift (about all I had), 7 on squats (maybe leaving one in the tank), and 8 on overhead press (all I had). Today is bench day, and I plan to leave at least one in the tank. (Failing on bench is embarassing since it means either doing the roll of shame or getting help.)

The lizard brain says these reps are wimpy and I should feel bad for not immediately pushing into double digits while the weight is pretty low. The cautious old-man brain says that I've been doing sets of 5 for months, so I haven't trained myself to do more reps, so I should increase the reps slowly to avoid injury.

Thanks for giving the sane half of my brain some extra ammunition.

 

[oanhsct]

@timhieuvetrello Thanks, your posts are making me consider switching to 5/3/1!

However, I am currently doing Lyle's Generic Bulking routine, doing pretty good and still experiencing weekly LP, without recovery issues. 38 y.o., current big lifts (x8) are BP 190, OHP 90 (still fighting to get good form), SQ (HB) 225, I don't deadlift with this program but do RDL 190. Do you think I should first exhaust the weekly progressions before moving to monthly ones?

Objectives: muscle size and strength, and when satisfied (satisfaction=225+ BP/265+ HB SQ, and better form 135+ OHP), I will cut down excess fat (actually mid-20s BF%, would like to go sub-15). I also run about 30 minutes easy 2-3 times a week.

 

[timhieuvetrello]

@oanhsct This is the advice I'd give to pretty much anybody when it comes to linear progression. If it's working for you, and you like it, stick with it. But the very moment it starts to fail you, switch to a slower program.

A lot of people will tell you to plateau and reset two or three times on an LP program before switching. To me that's a waste of time. In the long run, instead of sticking with a program that causes you to plateau and reset frequently, you should switch as soon as possible to a program that gives you steadier, long term progress.

Or to put it even more bluntly: if you have to reset your LP program every month, then it's no longer LP. So why stick with it?

 

[oanhsct]

@timhieuvetrello Thanks! I will then stick with LP and see if I reach my goals. If not, I will switch and will reach them eventually!

 

[belindasibarra03]

@timhieuvetrello Food for thought thanks. I've just started 5/3/1 this week, but even before I'd routinely train to failure for some exercises. I'll bear this is mind.

 

[hoodrichhx203]

@timhieuvetrello Thanks a lot for another great post! Just for a general idea, when you were pushing hard on those deadlift sets how many times extra reps were you hitting?

 

[timhieuvetrello]

@hoodrichhx203 Average extra reps:

1st 5 cycles: 5 extra

2nd 6 cycles: 4 extra

3rd 5 cycles: 4 extra

 

[hoodrichhx203]

@timhieuvetrello cool, good to know, thank you!

 

[timhieuvetrello]

@hoodrichhx203 No problem. I actually already had these numbers on my 5/3/1 spreadsheet. By the way, since then, my average is less than 2 extra.

 

[hldawson3]

@timhieuvetrello Hey, thanks for the tip here. I really recognized the whole "GIVE IT ALL I HAVE, ARR MATEY, THERE'S MORE IN THE TANK!" and then the following week there was absolutely nothing. I'm 30, and it occurred to me that this is the dumbass thing I have been doing all the damn time. I tried 5/3/1, but there's just too many numbers to keep track of, and I gave up because I kept mixing it up.

Do you have a way to help out keep track of this by any chance?

 

[timhieuvetrello]

@hldawson3 I'm a big proponent of making your own 5/3/1 spreadsheet, because you need to be able to personalize it and tweak it for your own needs. This is something I'll certainly talk about in a future post.

If you don't want to go that route immediately, then you have two options. Download some pre-made 5/3/1 spreadsheet, or use an online calculator. I honestly cannot recommend either of these, but if you go the online calculator route, then it should be the one at blackironbeast.com.

 

[dawn16]

@timhieuvetrello In case voter power means anything to you, I vote for the 'make your own spreadsheet' post.

 

[timhieuvetrello]

@dawn16 It's on the docket.