5x5 w/ KBs

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missingthemark

New member
I’ve ran Stronglifts many times throughout my life but thought to try these principles with the KBs for 8 weeks since I have adjustable KBs by Bells of Steel. Here is what I’m doing.
Workout A: double C &P, Front squat and pull ups, 5x5
Workout B: Double snatch 5x5, Turkish getup (timed), and barbell deadlift 5x5.

Do workout A day 1, workout B day 2, rest day, add .5 KG, repeat. 4 day a week program. On the Turkish get ups, start at 3-5 minutes, add a minute each week. In the DL add 5 lbs after rest day.

I also choose one assistance lift after the main lifts, dips, rows, goblet squats, swings, weighted carries, etc…keep things in the hypertrophy range 3-5 sets 8-12.

Thoughts? I’ve been trying with KBs for three years approximately so still have a lot to learn.
 
@hunter101 I just want to thank you for telling me that once "switch to an actual KB program".

I am completing my 4th week of DFW Remix and man what a difference a program makes. I look bigger and feel stronger than I did 4 weeks ago. Fat loss, muscle gain, and I feel much stronger overall. The volume is crazy but it's worth it, I feel like I earned my deload week.
 
@hapeaten It's wild how much of a difference it can make. Even just using a program as a base, or combining programs for different movements.

I did my own thing for years, which worked pretty well for some things (single kb strict press, chinups), but didn't really for a lot of other things. I've made more progress on my strict barbell press, high bar squat and bench press in the last 5 months than I did the preceding 2 years.

As a little bonus, I believe the kb programs I did last year built an excellent base.

One thing I'm still trying to get a handle on is how to sequence programs. You could always just go straight from one into another, or maybe have a deload week between, but you could also do a high volume program leading into a peaking program like Russian Squat Routine for barbell lifts. Or use a kb program for volume, and then peak with a barbell program. Just a few things to consider.
 
@hunter101 I'm curious, what was it about your own programming that didn't work, in your opinion? I'm doing my own thing but I've been learning a lot about programming and periodization from places like RP etc but I always wonder if the grass is greener the other side, with an actual program.
 
@artlicbunny If you build your own stuff based on RP's recommendations, you're probably not on the completely wrong track. But I'm fairly certain you'd do even better if you were to follow one of their actual programs for at least a couple of mesocycles, just to see what it all looks like in practice.

It can be difficult to figure out what part of it didn't work, but I think the number 1 thing was not managing fatigue properly.

For example, I might use the GZCLP T1 progression for barbell squats, but do it like 3x/week, where it's supposed to be done once a week with a lighter squat day done once a week as well. So pretty much always going heavy, with little variation in rep ranges.

A big part of it is also learning when I can really push it. For example, I've done The Giant up to 4 days in a row. I'd be extremely tired after day 4, but it was still manageable.

So there's a lot of learning what you respond to in terms of progression and fatigue. I recover really well from kettlebell work, and have for example pressed heavy, with high volume, every day, for a month straight. I need a bit more restraint with barbell lifts, except maybe overhead press. My squat and bench press have really benefitted from doing the Russian Squat Routine, which alternates between a light (I guess a recovery or technique work?) day and a hard day.

One benefit of running pre-written programs is that you can try out a bunch of things that you wouldn't have come up with yourself. I certainly wouldn't have come up with alternating hard days with 6x2@80% - what the hell am I going to achieve with such an easy workout?
 
@hunter101 Fatigue management is something I've struggled with as well. The reason I have been unable to follow a program is because I'm interested in many movement patterns and there are none that combine them (I'm aware of the specificity trade-off there and I'm ok with it). I think I am learning though and my current programming includes the staples I want to progress in and then easier workouts (either loaded mobility or high rep tendon recovery movement patterns that are actually very different to the actual staple movements).

I have also learned to autoregulate a lot so if say the plan says push up practice at 10RM and my triceps aren't recovered, I'll instead do a recovery workout instead and defer the planned workout until the next day.

Triceps are my biggest limiting factor as they are used in virtually every pressing movement (horizontal and vertical), in most kettlebell overhead skills and clubs/maces so they are really the muscle group most dictating what my programming looks like day to day
 
@artlicbunny
The reason I have been unable to follow a program is because I'm interested in many movement patterns and there are none that combine them
Click to expand...

One thing that's worked really well for me is doing programs for different exercises concurrently.
  • For example, I'm running Russian Squat Routine for pause bench and high bar squat, and Soju and Tuba for strict press
  • You can also sprinkle other stuff on top, like in DFW Remix
    • In your case you could have some dedicated time for exploring various movements either at the end of your main training days, or you could have a dedicated dicking around day.
    • ... you could even just call it a GPP day if you want to be fancy!
  • So say you're doing a clean & press program like The Giant. Most likely that's limited by your press, so that program is more or less the entirety of your overhead pressing.
  • You probably do some bench press/dips/pushups on top of it. For example, find a bench program and set your training max to ~80-90% of your actual max.
  • You could also run a snatch or a deadlift program, and a squat program, on top of it
  • If you don't have dedicated back work, just add some rows/pullups/chinups whenever you feel like it. When I did The Hydra, I averaged ~150 chinups a day on top of it. The chinups were pretty much all the back training I did at the time, and they didn't really interfere with my other training.
I have also learned to autoregulate a lot so if say the plan says push up practice at 10RM and my triceps aren't recovered, I'll instead do a recovery workout instead and defer the planned workout until the next day.
Click to expand...

If your weekly structure allows for that, great! Another alternative could be to keep maybe 1-2 extra reps in reserve on every set of pushups.

One important thing about following existing programs vs. doing your own shit: Existing programs will work to some extent for the vast majority of people. The more you stray from the program as written, the more you own the results or lack thereof.
 
@hunter101 Absolutely. The problem is that many programs assume that is the only program you do and therefore the planned intensity assumes a certain recovery frequency. So when one intertwines multiple programs none of them are getting the recovery that they assume (because like you say it's written for the general population and meant to be followed as written, usually in isolation). So even if one were to leverage the expert progression, the moment the "off days" become anything but off, autoregulation has to kick in.

On the point of weekly structure. I've had to abandon that a long time ago because life got in the way too much. I now have movements with specific progression paths (total of say 8-12 workouts per movement) and they all go into the pile of workouts that I need to chip away at. The way I run it is:
* I try to avoid more than 2-3 days max passing since last time I worked that movement.
* I use autoregulation to tell me if I am recovered enough for the next planned workout for that movement

This inevitably keeps me chipping away at the workouts without overtraining getting in the way (since I'll work on something else in that TODO buffet of workouts that i AM recovered for, with recovery movements as fallback for systemic fatigue) and aim to work my way down the pile of movements in a fairly even fashion. It works for now and I am progressing and knock on wood so far injury free this year but always open to exploring other ways
 
@artlicbunny Yeah, I have a very flexible approach to frequency too. I generally try to alternate between hard days (gym time) and easy days (doing stuff at home).

Depending on schedule and how I feel, sometimes that may turn into hard/hard/hard/easy/easy. I'm perfectly willing to accept a bit of a recovery debt if I know I have a couple of days with social events that'll force me to reduce gym time.

As long as you're making progress over time and you're ready to perform what your program expects you to, you're doing perfectly fine. No need to change anything at that point.

I keep mentioning Russian squat Routine, but one really cool thing about it is how your hard days build up volume, and then taper. It's worth trying it out if you have strength goals and access to a barbell.
 
@hunter101 I'll have a look at that Russian Squat Routine. The only heavy light weaving I do is inspired by mark Wildman for my ballistics in clubs and kettlebells where I will expose myself to higher weights (fewer sets/reps workouts) in order to make the working weight feel lighter and show me where my technique is breaking down.

I'm 40F so kettlebells are plenty heavy for me to count as pure strength but currently I think my basic strength movements programmed appropriately in terms of rep range are push up/pull up and the Isomax deadlift/squat.
 
@hapeaten I'm 4 days in and kind of debating if the volume is too much for me or if I should power through. I feel like it's worth it to keep going.
 
@cozicup Keep going, I tried to tweak the remix days based on how I felt, I also took one of the two days off sometimes mid week. Auto-regulate your remix volume, I sometimes just did my 5 sets of fighter pullup program, some other days I felt better and added 5 more sets of renegade rows.
 
@hapeaten Yesterday I was short on time and stopped at 180 swings instead of the full 200. But the swing day before I did 240. I figure the swing days are the days I'll adjust or occasionally skip if I need a break, but make sure to keep the clean&press days as programmed. Its partly having added some kettlebelling to my previous routine for the past idk 5-6 weeks but I'm already noticing a difference. I haven't measured myself yet either, I haven't lost any weight but I can feel a difference in how my clothes fit. I'm excited to see how I feel at the end of the 4 weeks. I'm hoping to either be up to running at least the clean&press days consistently with the double bells. So far double 35s for swings is way too much for me, I can only manage 10 of those 200 swings with doubles.
 
@montanajeepgirl So much good information.

One of my key takeaways over time has that things like exercise selection and rep ranges don't really matter; what matters is that you pick something you can progress with, and do that.
 
@missingthemark Just to be clear here yes like Lenny has said, hypertrophy can occur in rep ranges of 5-30 or even 40… BUT usually the most efficient use of time and energy will absolutely be in the 5-12 rep range. You’re not wrong, just not entirely correct.

Hypertrophy depends much more on “hard” sets (approaching failure) + progressive overload, rather than a particular rep range.
 
@chriscrossan Exactly.

My understanding is that the pathways for hypertrophy may also differ a bit between lower and higher rep sets, which woudl be an excellent reason to vary the stimlus over time.
 
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