Can you do a pull up if you can pull your bw in a lat pulldown?

J

josh88

New member
I’m (F/5’3/110lbs) currently training for a full pull-up 4-5 times a week. I can only pull 45lbs with the lat pulldown right now and can’t move myself a single inch on the pullup bar (not counting the shoulder shrug). My negatives also only last about 1/3 to 1/2 a second.

I’m just wondering, when you got your first pull-up, how much was your max weight in a lat pulldown? Also, what would you say was the single most important exercise/movement to help you achieve the pullup?
 
@josh88 My 2021 goal was to be able to do pull ups and I went from not being able to get 1 at all, to 8 on my best day. I started with banded (assisted pull-ups) for as many reps as I could get my chin up and then did negatives until those failed. In the same workout I would follow that up with heavy lat pull downs (never did sets at my current weight though) inverted rows, bent over rows and other back and bicep exercises. Keep working!!
 
@josh88 I can do reps of 12 pull up max but definitely can’t do 125 pounds pull down for 12 reps (can do 100*12). Pull down can be harder or easier than pull up because pull up is a compound exercises since it includes your abs, and there’s inevitably slight momentum when you go for reps (I try not to have too much). Whereas pull downs is an isolated back (lats mostly) exercise when done right.
So they are quite different. Pull down definitely helps but your don’t need to be able to pull down your body weight before you can so pull ups (if you engage your abs and lower body).

Try deficits pull ups / banded pull ups as well as inverted rows, scapular pull down also helped me a lot.

Lastly don’t get frustrated or impatient, you can do it! Before covid I couldn’t even do one pull up. Now I can do 12!
 
@josh88 I haven't scrolled through every comment, but I can tell you from my experience. About 15-18 years ago I got a pull up/chin up routine from a book or DVD (I got both at the same time). I think it was 18 pull ups one day, off day, 10 pull ups 10 chin ups, off day, 18 chin ups. Didn't matter how many times you stopped, just had to get it in. The odd part which really helped me was the supplemental exercises. Which was working your way up to a handstand. First step was to get on your hands and feet, butt in the air and look like an 'A'. Then same deal with you feet elevated on stairs or a couch. Then on the wall, etc.

Not sure way it helped, but it helped me. Even if it doesn't help your pull up it helps something, probably.
 
@josh88 Yeah I can do 9 pull ups, 10 chin ups but can barely finished 6 x 38.5kg lat pull downs.

Same with dips. I can do 7 bodyweight dips but my bench sucks. It's currently only at 37.5kg and I can only do 4.

Negatives are the way to go for pull ups. I have found assisted machines and banded pull ups to not help much. Try to keep your chin over the bar as long as possible during negatives.

Also try not to cross your legs behind when ascending. Keep your toes pointed down and legs straight in front.
 
@josh88 This isn’t the optimal place to put your legs because you’re making it tougher for yourself. Instead, you should place your legs slightly out in front of you in a hollow position

Ok this is how I do it. The lighting isn't the best though :
https://imgur.com/a/7zfdthL

When you put your legs straight out in front of you, you are plugging a major energy leak.

when doing a hollow position:

Actively engage your calves by pointing your toes down toward the ground.
Squeeze your quads and straighten your knees as hard as you possibly can.
Squeeze your glutes.
Tighten your abs.

Your whole body is one kinetic chain with that energy flowing up and down. So, when you do this, you’re plugging all the potential places where the force that you’ll generate can leak out. There’s nowhere else for that energy to go, other than right back up into the bar, down through your arms. You’ll perform a better pullup as a result and can perform more reps.
 
@josh88 I started off with being able to do 2 pull ups. I have been lifting for years and I do Muay Thai so the strong core perhaps helped.

I started in late June and by mid Dec I could already do 9 good ones. I train 3 times per week 5 sets each.
 
@josh88 Pullups and chin ups use muscles that I didn't even know existed. Way different although some of the same muscles are used.

Here's my setup for building up to a pullup. I have the door pullup bar and I wrapped a resistance band around it. I put my feet in it and that allows me to do same motion as a pullup or chin up but with some help. Uses all the muscles too like abs.

I can now do one dead hang pullup and 4 chin ups unassisted.
 
@josh88 The problem with the question is the lack of standardization between lat pull down machines, specifically the number of pulleys, the type of cable (or rope), the friction at each pulley, the calibration of the weights and especially when you’re pulling circa body weight, how tightly you can jam yourself into the machine can make a difference.

They do seem to be rather similar for me in terms of reps at bodyweight if we’re talking strict form for both and I would be surprised if you could do a strict, full ROM lat pull down with your body weight for a few reps and not a by-any-means-necessary pull up.

I think some combination of lots of strict bent rows, strict lat pull downs (especially with controlled eccentrics), assisted pull up machines, and to a lesser extent, banded (minimally) and leg assisted (minimally) with tempo eccentrics.

To me the most important thing is that you are really stimulating back strength improvements in general which means that you’re putting in some solid work a few times a week. At least some of this work will probably be really challenging. But if you’re going through strict, full ROM back movements and progressing them then you’re headed in the right direction.

I think a mistake that many people make is overly focusing on the pull up itself when they have almost no ability (initially) to participate in the movement at all so I’m my opinion they need to spend some time getting stronger with some things that they can do, because failing a quarter ROM pull up once a week will never work on its own. Some people that are already able to at least do part of it or a reasonable eccentric might be able to make it work through stubborn effort and dumb luck, but I would contend that more back work would be good for them too.
 
@josh88 Let me just say I tried for like 3 years to get a pull up with the lat pull down machines and also the assisted pull up machines….. years.

Negatives are the way to go 10000% IMO. Bands are a pretty distant second. I saw you said your negatives don’t last too long. Try just holding your head above the bar for as long as possible for now! You could also try some banded negatives.

I’m working on getting 10 pull ups right now (getting close) but I haven’t had access to a pay pull down machine in a really long time. I’m pretty sure I probably couldn’t do body weight on it but idk
 
@josh88 I actually got to 80% of my weight in a last pull down and realized it didn’t help my pull-up at all. Just doing pull ups with bands helped me get there. I can do like 6-7 chin ups and 2 pull ups haha
 
@josh88 So lat pull downs on the machine and pull ups are just different. Even when I was really strong on the pull downs (280 which was max on the machine -I’m 230 ish) for 10-15 reps I wasnt was doing many chin ups. Like 6. From my experience pull ups are best.
 
@josh88 A bodyweight lat pulldown tells you that your lat strength is roughly in the right ballpark but it tells you nothing about your core strength (which is hugely important for a pullup) or your skill with the pullup movement.

Machines are also not consistent in their calibration. It might SAY you're pulling x pounds, but who knows if that's correct.
 
@josh88 I'd say the two exercises have an overlap in terms of muscles used, but there are several differences. As others have said, X kg weight on a lat pulldown isn't actually the weight you're pulling down. Plus you're seated. In a pull-up, you need a lot more core involvement, plus grip strength.

I've seen people being much stronger on one vs the other, depending on what they've practised more. I can see a larger, muscular person pulling down their body weight for multiple reps but unable to do as many pull-ups due to grip strength limitation to hold their body weight. Whereas a smaller person who's done mountain climbing (strong core) could probably do multiple pull-ups but wouldn't come close to pulling down their body weight.

So, if you're working towards a pull-up, just focus on that.
 
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