Coach Sommer Spoke To Dr. McGill About J-Curls

[philip1979]

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/21715-question-about-jefferson-curls/?page=2

This seemed relevant considering the recent talk of jefferson curls and their safety. Sommer seems to be saying if you follow GB's method of loading them (slowly and carefully?), they're kosher with McGill. He also mentions that they should probably be capped at bodyweight, which is far higher than the 20kg or so that I recall @deborah123 and /@rfoobs have mentioned using for them, but more in line Emmet Louis's prescriptions of regularly increasing weight. Just something to think about.

 

[velocityth]

@philip1979 Nice post! I was worried because I just recently started doing them and was approaching the 20kg 'limit'.

As an aside, has anyone had experience with one-legged Jefferson curls? You would tip-toe the non-working leg. For a given weight, the stretch on the straight leg is much more intense, and I thought this might be away to target the hamstrings with the Jefferson curl while potentially saving the lower back.

 

[deborah123]

@velocityth I'd be wary of that actually, since most back injuries come with flexing the back + twisting. Unilateral work puts rotational forces on the core.

 

[velocityth]

@deborah123 I know what you mean. I find a tendency to rotate, but I thought I was 'exploring RoM'. If I try to put 50/50 bw per foot, even on the tip-toed one, the rotation is reduced. Would you have any input on doing that instead?

 

[deborah123]

@velocityth Well, I'd at least try it unweighted first before adding any weight.

Biasing definitely has it's place, but it's more risky with this type of exercise.

 

[velocityth]

@deborah123 Thanks, Steve!

 

[dawn16]

@velocityth I would just do straight one leg deadlift if you are only looking for the hamstring stretch. But damn, I can't imagine the looks I would get if I did one leg Jefferson curls! People are already panicking when they see me doing normal Jefferson curls with a barbell for many slow reps

And straddle Jefferson curls are another alternative exercise used in GB

 

[velocityth]

@dawn16 How much of a straddle? Would it be the weighted equivalent of a pancake stretch? Why/when straddle vs piked Jefferson curl?

 

[fromgenesistorevelation]

@velocityth Pretty cool idea. I'll give it a try soon and see how it feels as well.

 

[justm811]

@philip1979 Hey,

thanks for posting, do you know if the podcast Sommer mentioned as a possibility ever happened?

Also, from what I understand of Emmet's approach he doesn't prescribe ever increasing weight for J-curls as a goal in and of itself. In general he is a "minimum weight to increase ROM" kinda guy. Specific programming for J-curls in the context of getting the head-to-toe prerequisites is working up to 3x5-10 with 25% body-weight. Starting at 10% of ones deadlift or unloaded.

Which for most of us ends up at roughly 20kg, which I also vaguely recall from Steven and Joshua.

Cheers,

Michael

 

[deborah123]

@justm811 I recommend just enough to get additional range of motion and then backing off to maintain the range of motion with less weight. Usually that is in the range of

 

[justm811]

@deborah123 Thanks, looks like I misremembered kg vs lbs. Also, backing off in terms of weight once target ROM is achieved is definitely a good idea (which hadn't occurred to me yet ).

Cheers,

Michael

 

[prestontg]

@deborah123 20 lb25 lb ≈ 911 kg

[sup]metric[/sup] [sup]units[/sup] [sup]bot[/sup] [sup]|[/sup] [sup]feedback[/sup] [sup]|[/sup] [sup]source[/sup] [sup]|[/sup] [sup]hacktoberfest[/sup] [sup]|[/sup] [sup]block[/sup] [sup]|[/sup] [sup]refresh[/sup] [sup]conversion[/sup] [sup]|[/sup] [sup]v0.11.11[/sup]

 

[galatians220c]

@prestontg Good try !

 

[aamyggirl]

@philip1979 Serious question: are Jefferson curls really necessary? They are pretty risky and my impression is that most athletes have excelled without having to do them. So, is there a good reason to do them in the first place?

 

[deborah123]

@aamyggirl Depends on sport.

Absolutely not for sprinters and other sports with running and jumping. Excessive hamstring stretching diminishes power both in session and long term.

For gymnastics, sure. You need to be able to do the splits. Can hamstring flexibility be gained without JCurls... also sure. That's why going heavy with it is a questionable risk-reward ratio for me. High risk, high reward

 

[justm811]

@deborah123 Hey,

Excessive hamstring stretching diminishes power both in session and long term.

[Emphasis mine]

I was aware of acute max-strength/power reduction of stretching. However, I thought that this is specifically not the case long term. Doing a quick and dirty general search just now seems to support this, "increased ROM, no effect on DJ (depth jump) scores" seems to be a recurring refrain.

So could you point me towards some sources (text-books are fine) please. Also, what kinda effect size are we talking about (very roughly / order of magnitude)? While I really want to get the pike-press relatively soon, I don't want to compromise my sprinting/jumping capability to do it if it can be helped .

Anecdotally I can say that I have not seen any noticeable decline in my jumping/sprinting over the last 2 years (improved pike from not-touching-toes to face-to-shin). Although there is a definite strength increase in the same period as a confounder, and I didn't really measure/record anything.

Cheers,

Michael

 

[deborah123]

@justm811 Can't remember where I read it.

It was either high level sprinters or football players where excessive stretching decreased their sprint speed. If a muscle is lengthened too much you change the stretch-shorten cycle to not align well with the stride mechanics.

Textbook case of introduction of stretching and increases in muscle length, speed lowers, remove excessive stretching, muscles become less flexible and speed increases again.

If you're not an elite level sprinter or athlete, it might not matter much in the long run though. That's the only case(s) where I've heard of this happening.

 

[dawn16]

@deborah123 Steve, could you perhaps give an explanation for why elite soccer players - who must maintain 90+ minutes of running with interludes of bursts of speed sprinting - spend much of their training, especially during warm-ups, doing tons of hamstring, quad, groin, and hip flexor stretching?

I was watching the training routines of top-level football (soccer) clubs - Real Madrid with the likes of Ronaldo, Man Utd, Chelsea, Juventus, etc., and all their players are given a training routine with tons of stretching - passive, ballistic, partner-assisted, along with a slew of mobility drills...

These guys are some of the fastest, most quick-footed athletes out there, and yet stretching is so fundamental to their training. Is there any contradiction here?

 

[deborah123]

@dawn16 No, there's no contradiction.

There's nothing wrong with stretching in the context of warm up to make sure you have solid range of motion for game skills.

There is something wrong with trying to aggressively increase range of motion in elite athletes who don't need that range of motion, especially when it can slow down their top speed.

It's a question of "good" versus going to an "extreme" range of motion. Being able to touch your toes and have your hamstrings go up to 90 degrees in the supine hamstring stretch is a good range of motion for most athletes, but being able to do the splits is not.