DFW first timer , questions

[caz911]

Hi All,
Aften being a long time lurker, i finally post on this great Forum.

I’m about to begin on my first DFW and have hence some questions.

C&P rm while being ill and did 11 rm with 20 kg and 3 rm with 24 kg.

• Should i go with the 24 kg or the 20 and adjust the ladder to say 3/5/7 ?

FSQ rm is 9 with 24 kg. I dont have 28 Kg dB.
- Should i adjust my ladder for fsq and to how much ?

Rest time : any suggestions for a first timer or some good rule of thumb?

Thank you very much for a great Forum and lots of insights!

 

[emm]

@caz911 Without enough context about your background, age, lifestyle etc: my suggestion would be to go with 20 kg for C&P and 24 kg for FSQ. Also it's not clear whether you're using singles or doubles. I'm assuming you're using singles.

Source: I've done DFW with 3RM weights (for C&P) and while it's doable and gave good results (my C&P was 3RM with 2x24 and now the same weights are 6RM or lighter; didn't test), I found it took too much energy from me to keep up the same output in real life.

For FSQ: my suggestion would be to just stick to the rep scheme in DFW and focus, over the weeks, on decreasing the rest periods. I feel you will get 18+ reps on FSQ at the end of the program.

 

[caz911]

@emm Thanks for your feedback and suggestions.
I have added some more context. I’ll be doing double kb.

Training:
I usually do some s&s 24 kg & a 10-16 min emom Body armor complex (adjusted to 3 swings,2 press & 3 fsq) with dbl 20 kg 2 days a week and 2-300swings +100 pushups 1 day a week

Regarding your C&P & FSQ suggestion .
Should i do some adjustment to the program or just try to run it emom or maybe C&P & FSQ without rest ?

 

[emm]

@caz911 Thanks for adding the context. My suggestions remain the same. I personally train with a long-term view and I don't mind getting strong slower if it means I get to be injury-free; I'm assuming your thinking is similar. I share this to give you an idea where my suggestions come from.

My main reason for suggesting 20 kg for C&P is because the next size up is a bit too heavy right now (3RM).

Re: doing C&P and moving on to FSQ without rest: I'd suggest to keep some rest between C&P and FSQ, if you want to get stronger.

I'm also assuming that you're going to keep up your S&S practice when you pick up DFW. Keep in mind that stress accumulates. It's well worth going slower than you think you should for a week or two, to see how your body takes the extra stress. Then adjust as you see fit.

 

[caz911]

@emm Thanks for elaborating. I’ll do 20 c&p and 24 fsq.

I’m not sure if i should do both. Shoulders are where i’m weakest and Tgu prior to cleans , Can be taxing.
Was thinking of adding a set of kroc rows and a few swings at the end, but skip s&s ? Would i be wrong doing so ?

Related to breaks. Is there any recommendations?
I don’t monitor heart rate as of now.

 

[emm]

@caz911 I'm a bit confused. IIRC DFW is 3x/week (non-consecutive days) and S&S is most or all days a week, isn't it? If that is so, perhaps you can simply drop S&S on DFW days, at least in the beginning, and add it back in when you feel you'll be comfortable. A second option is to do what you said with some swings at the end, but again, I would give it a week or two to acclimatize.

If you are concerned about shoulders, maybe just go down a bell size on DFW days for the TGU - perhaps that is another option.

Re: HR, neither DFW nor S&S recommends any HR criteria. DFW being a strength program, longer rests are preferred - rest until you are comfortable and then add another 30-60 seconds of rest. IIRC one of the guidelines is that you shouldn't be 'grinding' and that all reps must be equally crisp. For S&S, nasal breathing and talk test would be your guidelines for how long to rest. Only very occasionally should you push harder. For health/longevity goals I would simply avoid pushing hard without a very good reason.

In general (and this is just my opinion) for general health and fitness goals, to safely and steadily get stronger, there's no need to overthink - start with less than you think you can do, confirm that it is as easy as you think, and gradually add workload - either increase the average weight lifted throughout the week or reduce average rest throughout the week VERY gradually - while keeping your RPE more or less the same. Then stay consistent for a few years

 

[tyler52]

@caz911 Based on the numbers you give, I’d suggest to start with double 20s for both. DFW seems super easy in the beginning but in my experience (did the Remix from r/kettleballs a while back) tends to get a lot tougher further in and - especially if nutrition and recovery aren’t on point (which is quite normal with small kids around - been there, done that…) - can build up a lot of fatigue. Additionally, going too heavy on some of Geoff Neuperts programs (which are press-heavy) can put some stress on your shoulders (technique getting worse at the end of a session due to tiredness).

 

[caz911]

@tyler52 Thank you ! Will consider doing so.
Any recommendation to rest time ?

 

[tyler52]

@caz911 In between sets? IIRC the recommendation is to do it in an auto-adjusted way, that is, when you feel ready for the next set (caught your breath etc), then go for it. In the beginning it can be tempting to rush through it but usually, that regulates itself quite fast. It might be a good idea to keep a diary of sets done to see how you are progressing over the weeks.

 

[tyler52]

By the way, since you are asking around for additional training, why don’t you try the Remix version (r/kettleballs even has a spreadsheet for that). I liked it a lot, even though it hit me hard in the last weeks. I alternated between pull-ups and gorilla rows on the swings/back-days (so one day swings and rows, the other one swings and pull-ups); originally I only did pull-ups but the sheer amount of these did not go down too well with my elbow (what Dan John calls „middle age pull-up syndrome…). This way, you give a lot of extra attention on your back which I found quite nice, given that DFW is rather push-heavy.

 

[caz911]

@tyler52 Thanks for the suggestion.

I don’t Think i’m ready for 6 days of workout a week as of now. I may try it in the future though !

 

[caz911]

As Daguydownstairs mentioned, too few information about me.

Im 32 , father to small children, used to train alot
until my mid 20.
I weight 192 and measure 6ft1. I dont Care about weight loss

My personal goals are strength, hypertrophy and fitness/cardio prioritized accordingly.

I have replaced all my training with kb and am really enjoying the journey. My goal is to train 3 times a week and how far i Can push myself.

My dfw weights are for double kb

 

[juancarlos]

@caz911 You would go lighter rather than heavier for DFW if you are not quite on the spot. You are supposed to stay fresh (/1/) when doing it and 3 RM will be challenging. And you use the same weight for presses and squats. It is very normal to be able to squat heavier than one can press. Geoff knows this. Don't alter the program if you are not experienced.

/1/ many don't stay fresh but that's what the program instructs.

 

[belovedsone]

@caz911 Maybe you can run another one of Geoff's programs, like the Giant? If you have a 11 rm with the 20's it would be perfect. After running that you could retest your 24's to see if you can get the 5 rm requirement.

Only downside is Giant is all C+P, but if you're going for strength and hypertrophy, the Giant will deliver. I guess you could throw in some FSQ on your off days to keep the squat strength up if you wanted.

 

[1011]

@caz911 I just finished my first run of DFW. My biggest challenge was finding the right number of total reps per 30 mins. For the first 2 weeks I tried "autoregulation". And I was in the 20 reps per 30mins range. Felt good but didn't feel like I was doing quite enough work. Started using an internal timer and was doing 30-40 by the 5th week. Do it with the weight you want to do it with and adjust your total reps accordingly. If I do it again I would run it without and interval timer the first week or 2, figure out where my rep range lands "naturally" and then use a timer to keep me on pace and trying for a few more reps each day for the rest of the program. Good luck, it's fun!

 

[caz911]

@1011 Thanks for the suggestion pomegranate-fellow
How Long did you rest for prior timer , and how Long afterwards ?