Need your help about working out hard without overtraining

[frhi]

Hello! I will write a long post detailing:

• My recent situation with overtraining.
• Some questions that would help me if you answer by giving me your opinion based on your own experience.
• My actual routine with reps/sets/effort used.
• My long term (hopefully shorter than longer!) goals.
• My recent situation with overtraining.

First of all, I’m a person that really likes to push hard and I would like to become as strong as possible in the most efficient way. I had a period of 3 months doing hard calisthenics and I encountered myself overtrained. This caused some small injuries that forced me to rest for 8 days (slight golfer elbow pain, neck pain, some shoulder pain, slight wrist pain) + changes of mood and drop in sleep quality.

These 8 days I have been feeling REALLY bad. I'm a really “nervous” person, or very active, not sure how to describe it and working out hard keeps me very relaxed, calm and happy so as you can imagine these 8 days were very bad for me. In order to avoid stopping training in the future I want to ask you all about your experience. Your opinions will help me change my training routine in order to be sustainable without resting periods because of overtraining or injuries.

• Some questions that would help me if you answer giving me your opinion based on your own experience.

·How long have you been training? And how long have you been training calisthenics?

·Which injuries have you encountered working out? What changes did you do to avoid any more injuries? And have they worked?

·Do you think being in a caloric deficit can cause more injuries? If so, what changes have you made to solve this problem? And did you notice loss of muscle/performance because of those changes?

·Do you think if you do push/pull day and the next day skill day will cause overtraining?

·How much time do you warm up before working out? And how much time do you think is the most efficient for warming up a part of your body that you are going to use?

·How much time do you stretch after working out? And how much time do you think is the most efficient for stretching a part of your body that you used?

·Do you think having 1 week of calisthenics + 1 week of lifting weights will help avoid injuries? Do you think that plan would delay skill learning a lot on calisthenics or improving weight lifting strength?

·Have you encountered yourself in the situation I described at the start? What changes did you do to avoid general overtraining?

• My actual routine with reps/sets/effort used.

The format will be this:

A1= exercise 1 (I pick one exercise of each letter).

12-12-12 (10-10-10) = the first 12s represents the reps and sets, the numbers inside the () means the RPE used in every set. 10 means going to failure, 5 means that I could do aprox. 6 reps more.

DAY 1 and 5 (calisthenics day) =

Full torso warm up 8-10 min

A1: Pull ups full range of motion 6-6-5-5 (9.5-9.5-10-10)

A2: Pull ups without losing tension at the bottom 10-9-8-7 (9.5-10-10-10)

A3: Chin ups full range of motion 9-8-7-7 (9.5-10-10-10)

B: Dips full range of motion 6-6-6 (8-8.5-9)

C: Rows/Australian pull ups 8-8-8 (7-7-7)

D1: Pseudo planche push ups 8-8-8 (7.5-7.5-7.5)

D2: One arm push ups 6-5-5 (10-10-10)

E: Front lever progression (atm frog) 10 sec-10 sec-10 sec (10-10-10)

F: Planche progression (atm tucked) 15 sec-15 sec-15 sec (9.5-9.5-10)

G1: Handstand hold 30 sec- 30 sec- 30 sec (9.5-9.5-9.5)

G2: Handstand push up 1-1-1 (9.5-9.5-9.5)

G3: Pike push up 8-8-8 (7-7-7)

H (very occasionally): Human flag progression 30 sec-30 sec-30 sec (8-8.5-9).

Stretches 30-45 min

DAY 2 (cardio day)=

A1: Walk 15-20 km

A2: Doing a HIIT routine which involves legs (20min aprox. depending on routine).

A3: Cycling 5-10 km

Stretches 30-45 min

DAY 3 (lifting weights day(in the past I was repeating day 1 here but it was the cause of the overtraining so I decided to change it for supportive weights day))=

Full torso warm up 8-10 min

A: Bench press 8-8-8 (9-9-9.5)

B: Inclined bench press 8-8-8 (9-9-9.5)

C: Bench chest flys 8-8 (8.5-8.5)

D: Supplementary exercise for chest that works upper chest but I don't know the name 8-8 (8-8)

E1: Posterior shoulder with dumbbells 12-12-12 (8.5-8.5-9)

E2: Curl biceps 8-7-6 (9.5-10-10)

F1: Shoulder flys 8-8-8 (8-9-9)

F2: Tricep extension 8-8-8 (9.5-9.5-9.5)

Stretches 30-45 min

DAY 4 (abs day/rest)=

I usually do max 30 min of abs workout, sometimes combining with cardio routines.

Stretches 30-45 min

DAY 5 (same as day 1)=

DAY 6 (leg day (you will see a drop of intensity here because it's hard to train legs at home at a high intensity, i'm using the maximum weight that I already can on my body to raise intensity))=

Full legs warm up 8-10 min

A: Squats 12-12-12 (7-7-7)

B: Abductor squats 12-12-12 (8-8-8)

C: Hip extension 20-20-20 (5-5-5)

D: Lunges 12-12-12 (7.5-7.5-7.5)

E: Glutes extension 15-15-15 (5-5-5)

F: Glutes extension lateral 15-15-15 (6-6-7)

G: Calves extension 20-20-20 (6.5-6.5-7)

Stretches 30-45 min

DAY 7 (rest day)=

I usually walk or do some activity if I feel like doing it.

Stretches 30-45 min

• My long term (hopefully shorter than longer!) goals.

Front lever

Back lever

Planche

Human flag

Handstand push up 12 reps

Muscle up

Pistol squat

Handstand push up without wall

One arm push up

I hope I didn't f*ck up the formatting, it's my first time doing a long thread and sorry if my grammar was bad, english is not my main language.

I would like to thank you all for using this sub, it is the best I follow by far with a really nice community. I can't have enough words of appreciation for you all.

 

[buzzy204]

@frhi I've been working out and training martial arts for 25 years. Injuries everywhere, especially the shoulders and elbows. I used to have huge problems with overtraining and almost destroyed my body.

First of all, I’m a person that really likes to push hard and I would like to become as strong as possible in the most efficient way.

You are never going to reach your strength potential with this routine. This routine is one of the worst routines I've ever seen in my life.

·Do you think if you do push/pull day and the next day skill day will cause overtraining?

No. Training too hard, too frequently without recovery will lead to injury... and that's exactly what you're doing.

·How much time do you warm up before working out? And how much time do you think is the most efficient for warming up a part of your body that you are going to use?

I warm up for five minutes. The best warm-up I've ever done is done doing really light versions of whatever lift I'm going to be doing with Pavel Tsatsouline's high-tension techniques. This let's me get the muscles AND neurological system warmed up, creating the best conditions for strength work. So if I was doing weighted push-ups, I'd warm up with regular push-ups or countertop push-ups, but tensing my muscles as hard as if I was doing weighted push-ups.

·How much time do you stretch after working out? And how much time do you think is the most efficient for stretching a part of your body that you used?

I use PNF stretching on my off days, which also helps me build strength. Usually 40 minutes.

Have you encountered yourself in the situation I described at the start? What changes did you do to avoid general overtraining?

I learned how to work out properly.

A1: Pull ups full range of motion 6-6-5-5 (9.5-9.5-10-10)

Here your first problem. Never train to 10 RPE.

A2: Pull ups without losing tension at the bottom 10-9-8-7 (9.5-10-10-10)

A3: Chin ups full range of motion 9-8-7-7 (9.5-10-10-10)

Here's your second problem: you think you can do 12 sets of an exercise above 9 RPE.

A2: Doing a HIIT routine which involves legs (20min aprox. depending on routine).

Here is your third problem: thinking you can do HIITafter running your body into the ground for over an hour the previous day.

DAY 3 (lifting weights day(in the past I was repeating day 1 here but it was the cause of the overtraining so I decided to change it for supportive weights day)

That was not the cause of your overtraining. All these sets to failure or near failure is the cause of your overtraining.

This is the worst training plan I've ever seen in my life. Not only will it not make you stronger, it will leave you weaker and broken. The fact that you're already seeing those effects after such a short period of time should be a wake-up call.

Go search for Pavel Tsatsouline and devour everything he's ever written or said. You especially want his books Naked Warrior and Power to the People.

He will correct every bad idea you have about strength training.

 

[frhi]

@buzzy204 Ok first of all, thanks a lot for your long response. Recommending external sources will definitly help a lot (checking right after answering the comments).

Few things I would like to ask you.

·You pointed out that this is the worst routine you have seen in your entire life. Is that due to the RPE that im using for every exercise? Or do you think that is because of the exercises itself?

I got this routine from fitnessfaq, basically its pull vertical-push vertical-pull horizontal-push horizontal-skills.

Im not sure if the format was correct but from A1,A2,A3 I pick just one every day and do the 3 sets.

Maybe im completly fucking up the routine because of the RPE though, let me know your thoughts.

·You said that is a big mistake to do HIIT after hard workout sesion, do you think if I drop the intensity will it be ok?

·And last question, you mentioned that dropping the intensity will make me stronger + reduce my injuries, which RPE would you suggest?

Thanks a lot for your answer, getting an answer from someone with so much years of experience helped a lot!

 

[buzzy204]

@frhi

·You pointed out that this is the worst routine you have seen in your entire life. Is that due to the RPE that im using for every exercise? Or do you think that is because of the exercises itself?

Both.

I got this routine from fitnessfaq, basically its pull vertical-push vertical-pull horizontal-push horizontal-skills.

Did fitnessfaq really write this as is? Or did you add exercises? On day one you have dips, pseudo planche push-ups, one arm push-ups, handstands push-ups and pike push-ups. And you have skill work in the middle of all this? I'm not too familiar with fitnessfaq, but I would be very surprised if they wrote this as is. I think you went a bit bonkers and completely rewrote the program because you wanted to get weaker and overtrain for some reason.

Im not sure if the format was correct but from A1,A2,A3 I pick just one every day and do the 3 sets.

I missed this. I thought you were doing all exercises back to back.

·You said that is a big mistake to do HIIT after hard workout sesion, do you think if I drop the intensity will it be ok?

Look into Maffetone-style aerobics if you have to, but the smarter thing to do would be to just take the day off or do light stretching.

·And last question, you mentioned that dropping the intensity will make me stronger + reduce my injuries, which RPE would you suggest?

Forget the RPE and read Pavel Tsatsouline. Basically, fatigue is detrimental to strength work. Instead of monitoring your RPE, monitor whether or not you feel fatigued.

 

[frhi]

@buzzy204 Hey! I already read the fist book you suggested, it was extremely interesting. So adding much more frequency with less fatigue and doing max 5 reps is the way to go. I will do that from now on, change intensity to do more sets instead of going to failure.

About the routine, is exactly what fitnessfaq wrote, I just removed the abs/lower back exercises and add another skill because I preffer doing abs and lower back the same day.

And yes I think I wrote wrong format or something.

I do 3 sets of vertical pulling.

3 sets of vertical pushing.

3 sets of horizontal pulling.

3 sets of horizontal pushing.

3 sets of skill1.

3 sets of skill2.

3 sets of skill3.

Now that I think the format is more clear, do you still thing this is horrible? If so, what would you change?

And btw, in some hours I will be reading power to the people aswell, if you have any other resources that you like, feel free to recomend aswell , thanks for your answers

 

[buzzy204]

@frhi

About the routine, is exactly what fitnessfaq wrote,

That really surprises me. Well, I'm not going to question fitnessfaq.

You really have to pay attention to your fatigue. You're teaching your muscles to be stronger, it's a skill for them to generate tension. Fatigue interferes with this skill.

If you're doing the same workout every day, you really have to limit your exercises, only 1-3. But that's a good thing, because you'll build strength quicker. If you're working out every other day you'll be able to add a few more exercises.

Now that I think the format is more clear, do you still thing this is horrible? If so, what would you change?

I have never seen anyone put skill work at the end of a workout before. It's usually supposed to be done when you're fresh, at the beginning, so that's why it really surprises me that fitnessfaq wrote this.

And btw, in some hours I will be reading power to the people aswell, if you have any other resources that you like, feel free to recomend aswell , thanks for your answers

Check out Enter The Kettlebell by Pavel. It's for kettlebells, so it won't be useful in that regard, but it will teach you about ladders, which is the single best method to building strength and mass I've ever found.

And most definitely check out Overcoming Gravity 2. That will teach you everything you need to know about incorporating skill work. The old Recommended Routine from 2017 was based on that book, so that's something else you can look up.

 

[frhi]

@buzzy204

I have never seen anyone put skill work at the end of a workout before. It's usually supposed to be done when you're fresh, at the beginning, so that's why it really surprises me that fitnessfaq wrote this.

I heared that people put it at the start when they want to prioritize getting skills faster than getting stronger on other exercises. I think I preffer getting better at pull ups, dips, etc.

About the program he gave, it was at the end: Ab exercise-Back extension-Skill1

Since I removed abs + back extension to put it all together in another day I added 2 skill more (maybe this is the problem).

Thank you so much for your advices, I will be doing hard changes on my routines (reducing exercises, lowering intensity, adding sets). And thanks again for the external resources, Im really curious right now hehe, cheers!

 

[buzzy204]

@frhi

adding sets

This concerns me a bit.

Just remember to recover, even if that means delaying your next workout a day or two.

 

[frhi]

@buzzy204 Yes! No I was thinking like: if I can do a max of 6 pull ups for 3 sets, change it to something like 3-4 pull ups, 4 sets. Or even regress to an easier version.

 

[buzzy204]

@frhi If your frequency is high, keep your sets low. And easy. Focus on generating tension.

 

[dawn16]

@frhi To answer your questions

I've been training in some way for around 8 years but specifically calithenics focused for 8 though before that I did do weighted pull ups and dips for a while.

Injuries - trapped nerve in spine, over extended wrist tendon I think plus lots of little bits of knee and back pain every now and then. Nerve was just due to doing too much all the time so I calmed down and did good form. Wrist tendon was due to heavy push press so I just stopped doing it until my wrists were stronger. No lose of muscle or performance noticed if anything an improvement due to better form lol.

Push/pull days then skill day won't necessarily cause overtraining but probably isn't the best idea in my opinion as you won't be very well rested for that day. Overtraining is caused by doing too much over an extended period of time.

My warm up is probably at around 20-30 mins though that's just because I walk to the gym/park/ woods to workout and then do around 5mins stretching and practice. I'd say 10 mins is all you need 5 mins to warm up your body 5 mind more specific warm up.

I think doing a week of calithenics and a week of lifting would be a little bit pointless as they complement each other and wouldn't reduce injury list. Personally I'd combine it if you enjoy both weightlifting and calithenics. I personally spend 6 months (winter) weightlifting/weighted calithenics and then 6months (summer) purely calithenics outside.

I've been overtrained a few times, minor injuries popping up, general tiredness, not wanting to train, lacking performance and feeling ill. Personally to avoid overtraining I limit my volume to a place I know I can handle well and still enjoy.

Looking at your routine it looks like a little much as you're experiencing overtraining and injury personally I'd suggest something like an upper lower split putting a lot of focus on the most bang for your buck exercises

Lemme know if you have any questions

 

[frhi]

@dawn16 Hey! Thanks a lot for your answers. I will apply all of your advices.

What you said about training weights 6 months / 6 months of calisthenics is very interesting. I thought about doing similar aswell.

About what you did and the advice you gave me regarding overtraining I got a question.

My current upper body routine looks like this:

3 sets of vertical pulling.

3 sets of vertical pushing.

3 sets of horizontal pulling.

3 sets of horizontal pushing.

3 sets of skill1.

3 sets of skill2.

3 sets of skill3.

In order to reduce volume would you use less intensity in every exercise that I do? or would you remove or change something? I was thinking aswell to make exercises easier and do more sets. What do you think?

And thank you so much for your answer, its so nice to know the opinion of someone with so many years of experience in calisthenics!!

 

[rh27]

@frhi I've been training for about two years, one and a half of that in a gym.

I injured my chest doing bodyweight dips once, couldn't do a pushup for about a month, even high incline pushups have me slight pain. I changed absolutely nothing.

Yes, I think a caloric deficit impacts your recovery, so you're more likely to get injured

I don't think that will cause overtraining

I warm up for about 5 minutes by progressively working up to the weight I'm gonna use. If I'm doing bodyweight movements, I don't warm up at all.

I don't stretch at all.

I think your chances of injury will be about the same on 1 week calisthenics + 1 week weights as on just weights or just calisthenics.

I never found myself in your situation

 

[frhi]

@rh27 Thank you very much for your responses, they are highly appreciated. Why do you think calisthenics and weights has the same chances of injuries? I find calisthenics much more dependant of tendons, ligaments, etc. Is that not the case for you?

 

[rh27]

@frhi Why would calisthenics be more dependent on tendons and ligaments?

 

[frhi]

@rh27 Because you have compound movement that requires estabilization, you lock up extremitys. When you bench press, for example, you dont fully lock elbows in order to not add pressure to elbows, but if you are doing handstand push ups you have to fully lock them, etc.

(Not really coming to my opinion, saw this on multiple videos of fitnessfaq, simonster, athlean x, etc on YT)

 

[rh27]

@frhi You can fully lock out bench press and you can do handstand push-ups without fully locking out.

I'm also not sold out on the idea that locking out is dangerous at all. Some people say it is, but others say it's not (Mike Israetel comes to mind as an example).

 

[frhi]

@rh27 Dont know man, I was just telling the advice that I saw in multiple videos, maybe depending on the person it changes, I find much more challenging to my tendons and ligaments doing calisthenics (thing that I like because it makes me so much stronger in functional movements).

 

[dawn16]

@frhi Based on personal experience, which is very different from yours (37M, 3 years of swimming, running, rock climbing, plus some bodyweight exercising, with only minor injuries to report):

Do you think being in a caloric deficit can cause more injuries?

I have spent dozens of weeks in caloric deficits ranging from -200 to -600 kcal, and it never made a difference. However, I always compensate deficits with more sleep, more careful hydration, and also generally going less hard.

Have you encountered yourself in the situation I described at the start? What changes did you do to avoid general overtraining?

I never encountered that situation, simply because I train at a much more moderate level than you do. However, I carefully track all my sessions in order to (1) stay within a desirable range of training sessions/hours per week, and to (2) decrease volume/intensity in the week(s) after the more demanding ones.

Diversifying your training definitely helps in my view.

 

[frhi]

@dawn16

I have spent dozens of weeks in caloric deficits ranging from -200 to -600 kcal, and it never made a difference. However, I always compensate deficits with more sleep, more careful hydration, and also generally going less hard.

Ok nice advice, I will pay attention to compensate that way.

I never encountered that situation, simply because I train at a much more moderate level than you do. However, I carefully track all my sessions in order to (1) stay within a desirable range of training sessions/hours per week, and to (2) decrease volume/intensity in the week(s) after the more demanding ones

Thats exactly what Im looking for, so in order to change my routine to train more moderate like you do what would you do? Lower the RPE generally in all exercises? Remove sets? Change the plan into something else?

Thanks a lot for your answer, it helped me a lot, its nice to know also from someone that has experience in different fields aswell!