@joellemarie197 Just a hint, i have seen a lot of form checks around here which have been helpfull in diagnosing myself. I have used form check myself. Taking advantage of the community's good will
Only S&S?
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joellemarie197
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bluemayskye
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@joellemarie197 I ran S&S for a while when I first started. It was good to build consistency. Also how you can modulate it for hand to hand swings or hammer longer sets with each arm before switching you can make a lighter bell feel heavier before needing a heavier bell. It's a good starter package for sure. However I ultimately got bored and lost motivation. Then I ran dry fighting weight which I believe is a better program.
@joellemarie197 S + S willdo amazing things for your nody if you actually follow it through
@joellemarie197 +1 for Dry Fighting Weight and DFW Remix.
Swings are cool, but I rate TGUs very lowly.
In my opinion you should focus on clean & press and front squat, preferably with doubles.
Press can be substituted for push press or jerk.
If you want to go beyond that, add rows and snatches, in that order.
While swings are cool, in my opinion they don't count as any kind of pull. Cleans and snatches can to some degree.
TGUs have a floor press at the bottom, but that really doesn't beat a lot of clean & press. In fact I'd argue that clean & press trains everything the swing + TGU combo promises, and more.
Swings are cool, but I rate TGUs very lowly.
In my opinion you should focus on clean & press and front squat, preferably with doubles.
Press can be substituted for push press or jerk.
If you want to go beyond that, add rows and snatches, in that order.
While swings are cool, in my opinion they don't count as any kind of pull. Cleans and snatches can to some degree.
TGUs have a floor press at the bottom, but that really doesn't beat a lot of clean & press. In fact I'd argue that clean & press trains everything the swing + TGU combo promises, and more.
@joellemarie197 Depends on where your technique is at. If you can swing and TGU pretty solid then there a number of options. Geoff Neupert advises to master single kettlebell movements before you do doubles. That won’t necessarily take months but it’s worth making sure you can do things right before you do things heavy.
Brett Jones’ Iron Cardio is pretty cool. You can do single kettlebell work, mix up the variables to make it harder and move to doubles.
But please, save yourself time and health and get your technique dialed in. How you do that is up to you but some time with S&S isn’t a bad place to start.
Brett Jones’ Iron Cardio is pretty cool. You can do single kettlebell work, mix up the variables to make it harder and move to doubles.
But please, save yourself time and health and get your technique dialed in. How you do that is up to you but some time with S&S isn’t a bad place to start.
joellemarie197
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@joellemarie197 S&S is fine for people just getting into kettlebells, that's what I did. But I found it got boring quick, and after doing research found that it's not the best use of your time.
I would do it for maybe three months tops, then either incorporate other things into it, or move on to a better program. You could add Pavel's Rite of Passage onto it. Clean and press is probably the best kettlebell exercise, and it's lacking in S&S.
I would do it for maybe three months tops, then either incorporate other things into it, or move on to a better program. You could add Pavel's Rite of Passage onto it. Clean and press is probably the best kettlebell exercise, and it's lacking in S&S.
@joellemarie197 I have the same “no thinking” requirement for my exercise, and when I was new with kettlebells I loved S&S for that. Even today I still use the S&S warmup for almost every workout I do (goblet squats, halos, glute bridges) and it’s also my default workout if I don’t have something else in mind.
People seem to think a program should cover every possible muscle to be worthwhile, but S&S is just one program - just one tool in the toolbox. And in my opinion, it’s a great tool!
People seem to think a program should cover every possible muscle to be worthwhile, but S&S is just one program - just one tool in the toolbox. And in my opinion, it’s a great tool!
juancarlos
New member
@joellemarie197 S&S is fine. Some people just dislike it. That doesn't mean everybody does. Dissatisfied people are louder than the satisfied people are.
@joellemarie197 Love me some simple and sinister. These days I use it during de-load cycles or in-between programs as a daily base to add on to.
By itself with nothing extra it’s a bit…incomplete.
By itself with nothing extra it’s a bit…incomplete.
joellemarie197
New member
@geekfreak At this point I'm aiming for something complete. S&S seems like a good starting point though.
If you deload using it, what's your normal program?
If you deload using it, what's your normal program?
@joellemarie197 I’ve worked through DFWRemix, 10,000 swing challenge and Neupert’s ICT in the past year. On a second round of DFW remix currently. I also like the old BWF RR a lot.
missingthemark
New member
@joellemarie197 Any one of Pavel’s programs are good. If you’ve never worked with KB’s, start with simple and sinister.
@missingthemark Why? It's so incredibly minimal you miss out on a huge amount of what kettlebell training can actually give you
Especially for beginners.
Especially for beginners.
missingthemark
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darienjames
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@joellemarie197 I've done mostly S&S for the past 7 months as my first go with KB. I certainly recommend it. Prior to this, I did 6 months bodyweight and a few years of yoga and random pushups and dumbell work.
I've definitely gotten a lot stronger and have built the lats and forearms that my BW program didn't grow. Overall, I'm also a lot fitter - those swings do their job.
I've fairly strictly followed the program, with my only mod being that I do 10 bicep curls in the first rep of each prying goblet squat set.
With that done, I think the only major muscle group that doesn't get much work is the chest. The 5 floor presses out of the TGU is probs not enough to grow, but as you progress, you definitely get stronger in the chest. Having tested, I've not lost any of the progress in my push-ups/dips that I'd gotten during my BW training.
I've definitely gotten a lot stronger and have built the lats and forearms that my BW program didn't grow. Overall, I'm also a lot fitter - those swings do their job.
I've fairly strictly followed the program, with my only mod being that I do 10 bicep curls in the first rep of each prying goblet squat set.
With that done, I think the only major muscle group that doesn't get much work is the chest. The 5 floor presses out of the TGU is probs not enough to grow, but as you progress, you definitely get stronger in the chest. Having tested, I've not lost any of the progress in my push-ups/dips that I'd gotten during my BW training.
anonymousgirl26
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@joellemarie197 I started doing getups and swings in early 2015 and then started doing S&S by the book in early 2016, pretty much 5-7 days per week up until November 2017 or so. I eventually got up to doing it with 40kg but I never really timed myself and was never in a huge rush. I did timeless before timeless was codified. At my peak, I probably could have done 48kg, at least for a little bit. 40kg getups were pretty strong. However, I didn't want to buy a 48kg bell. I would have been 30-33 between when I first started with swings and getups to when I transitioned away from S&S. I switched over to Karen's Smith's Refine after that but there were still days where I would do a S&S session.
I thought the results were pretty good, but I think I went in with rather reasonable expectations. I didn't have any pain, I didn't have any soreness. I was never banged up. Doing the program every day became routine. It wasn't fun, it wasn't exciting, but it was a pretty effective dose for what it was. I was both stronger and more conditioned. I really liked the mental aspect of it where I knew where I was at any point in the session, and thus also mentally knew when I was at the half way point, or 3/4 point, or nearly finished.
Most of the time I was doing it with just a single 32kg bell, that was really nice. Knowing I didn't need anything else. I also really liked Refine, but I didn't have enough bells for everything. I had a 10kg, 12kg, 16kg, 20kg x2, 28kg, 32kg, 40kg. There where drills where I wish I had a second 16kg, and a second 32kg, and a second 40kg, and 48kg x 2 (Dead lifing, I am no way strong enough to press, swing, and probably even squat a pair of 48s). The only needing one or two bells for everything was a HUGE plus.
But like I said, you need to have fairly reasonable expectations. You are not going to S&S your way to the Olympics. I had the mentality that I wanted to be able to do a session and have it feel pretty easy, with the mentality that there probably isn't much in every day life that is going to rival it in terms of short term physical difficulty. Anything in day to day life that would still be physically challenging would probably be some super long duration thing. I also had the mentality that the movements should almost be performance like and should be deliberately beautiful. No flopping on the ground for a getup or wimpy half ass swings. Poor movement is its own form of weakness. If your getup looks like absolute shit, the weight doesn't matter so much.
I would say the program is very good for what it is, and it has a lot to offer to someone new. It allows you to focus all your mental energy on doing just two things very well vs trying to learn 6-12 new things. Its a great place to start for someone fresh, who can make a daily effort and focus on gradual progress over months or even years. I remember several years ago a woman in her 40s posted in here how she got S&S and started it with 8kg and just did it every day, gradually going up 4kg until I think she got up to the women's simple standard. It was just a morning 20-30 minute routine she did every day. She worked in an office and was not a gym rat but they had some push up contest at her work, and despite not training pushups she went and beat all the other women. Its perfect for that type of person.
If you are brand new to kettlebells, S&S gives you a clear road map to a point where you will then be good to go out and do other things. If you are new to swings, and new to getups, I would definitely recommend S&S, at least until you get up to the timeless simple standard. When i went and did Refine, all of the drills came fairly easy to me because I was building them on a foundation. The variety was much higher, every day was different.
If you want a program you can do every day for life, S&S is a pretty good option. I would not consider someone who just maintains the timeless simple to be weak and poorly conditioned. You will be stronger and better conditioned than the vast majority of people your age, especially once you get 30+. I have often said, If I could get to the point where I could maintain an 8kg or even 12kg turkish getup as an 80 year old man, that would place me physically above like 95% of other 80 year old men.
For what you are looking for, Just do these exercises every day, S&S was designed to do that. You could spend years doing it and still benefiting from it.
I thought the results were pretty good, but I think I went in with rather reasonable expectations. I didn't have any pain, I didn't have any soreness. I was never banged up. Doing the program every day became routine. It wasn't fun, it wasn't exciting, but it was a pretty effective dose for what it was. I was both stronger and more conditioned. I really liked the mental aspect of it where I knew where I was at any point in the session, and thus also mentally knew when I was at the half way point, or 3/4 point, or nearly finished.
Most of the time I was doing it with just a single 32kg bell, that was really nice. Knowing I didn't need anything else. I also really liked Refine, but I didn't have enough bells for everything. I had a 10kg, 12kg, 16kg, 20kg x2, 28kg, 32kg, 40kg. There where drills where I wish I had a second 16kg, and a second 32kg, and a second 40kg, and 48kg x 2 (Dead lifing, I am no way strong enough to press, swing, and probably even squat a pair of 48s). The only needing one or two bells for everything was a HUGE plus.
But like I said, you need to have fairly reasonable expectations. You are not going to S&S your way to the Olympics. I had the mentality that I wanted to be able to do a session and have it feel pretty easy, with the mentality that there probably isn't much in every day life that is going to rival it in terms of short term physical difficulty. Anything in day to day life that would still be physically challenging would probably be some super long duration thing. I also had the mentality that the movements should almost be performance like and should be deliberately beautiful. No flopping on the ground for a getup or wimpy half ass swings. Poor movement is its own form of weakness. If your getup looks like absolute shit, the weight doesn't matter so much.
I would say the program is very good for what it is, and it has a lot to offer to someone new. It allows you to focus all your mental energy on doing just two things very well vs trying to learn 6-12 new things. Its a great place to start for someone fresh, who can make a daily effort and focus on gradual progress over months or even years. I remember several years ago a woman in her 40s posted in here how she got S&S and started it with 8kg and just did it every day, gradually going up 4kg until I think she got up to the women's simple standard. It was just a morning 20-30 minute routine she did every day. She worked in an office and was not a gym rat but they had some push up contest at her work, and despite not training pushups she went and beat all the other women. Its perfect for that type of person.
If you are brand new to kettlebells, S&S gives you a clear road map to a point where you will then be good to go out and do other things. If you are new to swings, and new to getups, I would definitely recommend S&S, at least until you get up to the timeless simple standard. When i went and did Refine, all of the drills came fairly easy to me because I was building them on a foundation. The variety was much higher, every day was different.
If you want a program you can do every day for life, S&S is a pretty good option. I would not consider someone who just maintains the timeless simple to be weak and poorly conditioned. You will be stronger and better conditioned than the vast majority of people your age, especially once you get 30+. I have often said, If I could get to the point where I could maintain an 8kg or even 12kg turkish getup as an 80 year old man, that would place me physically above like 95% of other 80 year old men.
For what you are looking for, Just do these exercises every day, S&S was designed to do that. You could spend years doing it and still benefiting from it.
littlelostgirl
New member
@joellemarie197 It's good for starting out. I did it up to 32kg when I first started.
As soon as I got snatch down, it completely replaced swings for me.
Double C&P, Double Front Squat, and Snatch (SA or Double) are the most beneficial KB lifts IMO.
Most will hate this. But the TGU for anything other than mobility or warm up is pretty overrated.
As soon as I got snatch down, it completely replaced swings for me.
Double C&P, Double Front Squat, and Snatch (SA or Double) are the most beneficial KB lifts IMO.
Most will hate this. But the TGU for anything other than mobility or warm up is pretty overrated.
@joellemarie197 I did S&S when I first started, but stopped after reaching timed simple. Started going double bells and some barbell stuff. But I recently started running it again while I rehab my knee and rotator cuff and I’m amazed at how effective it is. Especially for restoring proper movement and building strength. Like others said I wouldn’t do it as a standalone, but it’s very effective for what it is.