Question about Compounds and specifically barbell movements

[constantine1946]

https://www.reddit.com/r/naturalbodybuilding/comments/1b8t7e7/anyone_dropped_major_barbell_compounds

https://www.reddit.com/r/naturalbodybuilding/comments/xdv1h6/opinions_on_the_big_five_compound_workouts

I was bored and scrolling these old posts.

Am I right to assume most of these people injured themselves at near 1RPMs? Doing 0-1 RIRs?

Or the weights were objectively high weights?

Because for reference, I feel like you can't cause injuries like that if you're being careful about autoregulation and load management? And addressing weak links? But its just a gut feeling. I'm still learning.

I've heard of people herniating their discs lifting a suitcase off the ground(20kg?)

And then there's people doing advanced strength numbers into their 50s.

For some reference.

My knees stopped clicking since I've been doing prehab/rehab of my own. The cause was improper movement mechanics, core imbalances/QL imbalances, weak glute medius, and improper action of the hamstrings during knee flexion, and some IT band issues.

The clicking caused an ACL tear initially for reference.. So it wasn't the harmless kind in my case.

My main questions would be->

Can you successfully reduce your chronic injury risk to near 0 if you're careful about->

Load Management

Autoregulation

Addressing Weak Links as they occur

A Well Balanced Program

Among other things..

What are those those people doing right that have managed to always stay on top of the game and lift heavy to their old age, and maintain a good physique, while others keep hurting themselves and keep cutting out certain lifts out?

Even from a bodybuilding perspective, I like the carryover (stability) wise from those compounds in my daily life.

I do understand Grade 1 tears/minor tendinopathy scares, and occasional mishap type injuries can still happen, but I don't consider those chronic.

Chronic for me is something that impairs day-to-day quality of life in the long term. (Disc issues,Nerve issues,Mobility Restrictions as a result of improper heavy lifting,grade 2/3 tears)

EDITED for better formatting.

 

[junior59]

@constantine1946 respectfully, what is this yap session? I read it 3 times and still not really sure what you're asking.

You can injure yourself doing weight you're comfortable with. I hurt my shoulder last year (took like 4 months to fully rehab) doing dumbbell shoulder press with like 40s. I've been able to do 40s for roughly a decade now.

Yes, autoregulate. Yes, listen to your body and don't push through injuries mindlessly. No, you don't need to do any specific exercise.

You're way way way overthinking this. Focus on lifting weights with good technique. Focus on slowly progressing weight. Take rest as needed.

If you (pretty much inevitably if you're pushing any serious weight) get injured, take steps to recover and if it's bad, work with a PT to address.

 

[constantine1946]

@junior59 No offence taken, I wanted to share some things, I think I may have deterred a bit from the theme of the subreddit.

Its more of a "I'm curious" post? I'm getting serious about bodybuilding too, after a long stint of rehabilitation(mostly bad imbalances that made their way to my lifting from childhood that I couldn't fix because I wasn't progressing carefully).

Seems to be some sort of fearmongering around BB compounds on those posts so I guess I was just curious what's up with that and if my thought process around how to prevent those things were valid or not.

I see, so sometimes injuries just happen. I kind of started off bodybuilding/lifting with a horrible mindset. Used to be depressed out of my mind. Take a pre and pump out reps just trying to chase a higher rep count/weight. And I did push through injuries and basically crippled myself. Its not something you hear often because yes I was a fucking idiot in hindsight but i've since taken my time to learn the basics and i'm on the right track this time.

I think I may have let my prehab/rehabilitation/athletic stuff bleed into lifting/bodybuilding.. you're right.. I can't deny I may definitely be overthinking it. I'm looking to study exercise science/kinesiology so sometimes I can't find balance and go overboard..

I've had a mental block and a lack of any good coaches(or rather a lack of finances to afford one), or a proper sports PT or anything of that sort i've had to do a lot of even pointless trial and error to get myself back up.

 

[junior59]

@constantine1946 thanks for clarifying. It's a somewhat nuanced topic. BB compounds are definitely not absolutely necessary (and people make great progress without doing them), the main draw is that they work a lot of different muscles at once (and are very time efficient). The core of hypertrophy development (and strength training for that matter) is progressive overload, so you want to add a little more weight over time and keep lifting more and more weight. BB compounds make this easier to do because you can much more easily add 5 lbs to bench vs something like a tricep extension.

If you focus on proper warmup, good technique, asking for spotter when needed, and taking care of accumulated fatigue, you can pretty safely incorporate this into your training. There's no guarantee of 0 injury over a long period of time, but imo injury rate is no higher than any other sport (and likely much much lower than contact sports).

My advice is to find a popular program, run it exactly as written for a few months. Repeat with a few more programs and you'll start to see commonalities or specific techniques that you like and eventually you can compose your own. Heard on the coaches being expensive, imo unless you're more serious about competing (I am not) I don't think it's worth the price and cheap coaches are likely going to give you worse program than just a well-designed pre-written program.

If you're looking for programs to get you started, I highly recommend Jeff Nippard's https://jeffnippard.com/collections or John Meadows https://mountaindogdiet.com/programs/program-comparison-chart/# . While I don't want to explicitly condone piracy, they are pretty easy to find online for free.

 

[constantine1946]

@junior59 Oh okay gotcha. I love BB movements, there's just some primal feeling lifting a huge rod lol.

I appreciate you helping me out, that makes sense.

Yep 0 injuries is not practical I get that. I'm gonna focus on those key things you mentioned.

I'm not serious either but now that my rehabilitation phase is nearing an end i'm ready to hit it hard the next 6 months and put on mass!

Yea thanks I think i'm gonna try one of Jeff's programs.

 

[asperd]

@junior59 I've seen so many people fuck their shoulder up with seated db shoulder press. Which is why I don't like doing that movement. I do it standing (downside is that it's easier to cheat and allegedly not as effective for growing the front delts from what Ive heard) or use the seated shoulder press machine (if I care more about minimizing cheating than muscle imbalance. Though im sure i could do the shoulder press machine unilaterally if i really wanted to). Dr. Mike doesn't even like the shoulder press and says just do DB Incline Bench instead since that stimulates front delts rather well as a secondary mover. When was the last time anyone has had weak front delts?

 

[junior59]

@asperd lol I might have seen the exact same Dr. Mike video this morning about DB incline bench (kinobody video?). I took shoulder dumbbell press out of my routine earlier this year since imo kicking the dumbbell up to position itself is somewhat dangerous (and was basically how I injured myself). I tried out "unilateral dumbbell shoulder press", basically training one arm at a time and using second arm to self-spot, but this was kind of jank. Ultimately settled on seated barbell press which is comparatively more stable and easier to progressive overload on.

I get Dr. Mike's argument that basically ever pressing movement involves front delts (absolutely true) but overhead pressing movements also train the side delts fairly well (and is much easier to overload than e.g. lateral raises). I do flat bb bench as foundation + incline db on one session and flat bb + overhead press on the other.

I think what he said is all correct, but my goal isn't to look like Mr. Olympia, I'd much rather have like a David Laid physique where his shoulders are relatively overdeveloped. It's hard to achieve without gear (something something shoulders have a ton of androgen receptors and respond extra to gear) so extra shoulder volume is the natty method.

One interesting discussion that imo doesn't get enough attention here is that bodybuilding is very much selectively developing muscles to a desired physique. My goal is strictly not to maximally hypertrophy all muscle groups. As an example, it's somewhat common for bodybuilders to undertrain the core (relative to athletes) with the explicit goal of having a narrow, less muscular core (v-taper). In my case, I'd rather over-develop front delts to get a bit more side delt growth, barring injury risk and overuse of joints.

 

[constantine1946]

@asperd I just do unilateral db shoulder press for some form work occasionally but I never found them nice either. The setup in and of itself is awkward too.

But my guess is people who do that have weak links in their rotator cuffs(Specifcally the subscapularis/teres minor, i'm not 100% sure)

 

[constantine1946]

@junior59 I've formatted the post. Thank you for your critique.

 

[doks]

@constantine1946 Pick movements that work well for your specific biomechanics and allow you to progressively overload long term without any major aches or pains. Simple as that

 

[constantine1946]

@doks Fair enough. Or make adjustments that let you still perform them.

I suppose it will take me a few years of trial and error to figure out what that looks like for me. Thanks.

 

[doks]

@constantine1946 Def shouldn’t take a few years. More like a few weeks if you’re not screwing around in the gym.

 

[constantine1946]

@doks Alright I suppose as the other commenter said I may be overthinking.

I'm gonna stick to my program, some basic prehab and strength goals.

Thanks.

 

[leitmotif]

@doks Pretty much. I like doing heavy compound lifts, and they're not giving me issues, so I've got no plans to stop doing them. Deadlifts for example are among my favorite lifts, so I'll keep doing them.

Stuff I have nixed that I experimented with previously was dips (shoulder pain, and felt awkward, would need more time to master it than I care to invest), and upright rows (movement feels awkward).

I've also realized that I need to tweak something in the technique of my hip thrusts, because they're killing my lower back every time recently. So either I'll find a way to fix that or I'll have to find something that I'll get the technique of right.

 

[constantine1946]

@leitmotif Great! I love DLs too.

Initially as a newbie I had no idea how exactly to brace your core. Shameful to admit this but only now after 2 years have I figured it all out.

I think I got tailbone issues/disc stuff with hip thrusts initially.

 

[leitmotif]

@constantine1946 I was a bit lucky. Was a guy at my gym that saw me and a friend deadlift years ago, he helped clean up our technique on the spot. Never really had any injuries with the movement, knock on wood. And that feeling of just pulling a lot of weight off the floor? Really fun.

Same with standing shoulder press. Not as talented at it, but it's still really enjoyable, and I'm not overly concerned with the "oh you don't need to train the front delts directly" crowd. Me doing three sets of shoulder press per week won't murder my front delts,so I'll be fine, and most importantly - enjoying my training.

 

[confusedgirl98]

@constantine1946 Just curious. How did you stop your knees clicking? Mine click really really badly, they don't hurt so much as they are loud, but it's still somewhat concerning

 

[junior59]

@confusedgirl98 not a doctor, but generally clicking isn't necessarily bad if it doesn't come with any pain or discomfort. I had a clicking ankle for several years while I was a distance runner back in high school. It was annoying but didn't get worse or progress. Went to see a doctor and he basically said not to worry about it if it doesn't hurt.

It has gone away at some point, not really sure when, but I also stopped being a serious runner a while ago.

 

[constantine1946]

@junior59 That's nice to hear. I suppose sometimes its just crepitus.

I heard that same advice and ignoring the clicking gave me a grade 1 ACL tear during a squat. In my case it wasn't but yea maybe I was just the outlier here and not in a good way.

 

[constantine1946]

@confusedgirl98 I think it has a lot of reasons to click. As the other commenter said sometimes its harmless.

I plan on studying rehabilitation in the upcoming years(PT/Kinesiology) but for now I couldn't help you even if I wanted to in like a -> I got you bro.

But-> My guess is improper patellar tracking?(Can't be sure.. though, I'm new to this)

You should look into your kinetic chain. You might have some imbalances.

You could try this progression of isometrics->

Do a wall sit, start low if you need to 30 seconds? Build upto 2 minutes.

Then add weight if you want. Or start doing single leg wall sits, the isometrics should fire up any weak links as you reach failure, that's how I figured out I had a weak glute medius, and poorly functioning hammies which I fixed with leg extension isometrics..

Also, try wrapping a band around your calves, which you can resist with your legs, it should teach you how to open your hips up as you go down in the hole if that's your root cause(External rotation of the hips).