The Kneesovertoesguy

1

19disciple44

New member
What do you make of his technique and arguments for going with the knees over the toes? I searched and found this video where he performs a Deadlift with this technique.


What are your thoughts?

I came here doing a squat, knees over toes swing that is frowned upon and have now done two workouts with the hinge (not that good, but closer to the optimal form for sure).

However, I mis the load on the legs/knees/ankles. The full leg workout, with the knees over toes, with the hinge on my ankle.

The explosive movement form that low position into full standing position gets my heart going faster, over all a more difficult and rewarding workout.

Performing the same workout with the hinge leaves my legs cool .. its to easy/boring for the legs. They crave the pump/love!

I have only gotten stronger using that over 1.5 years. Not a slight hint of aches/pain.

?

This is a good faith question. I am not writing to be disagreeable for the sake of being disagreeable, simply curious!

Ben Patrick, The Kneesovertoesguy talks about how his thinking/method goes against a dogma of the bodybuilding community to good effect.

I wonder if not going with the knees over the toes is simply carried over to Kettlebell for the same reasons and if his points make sense in this context also?

I am only an N=1 example of daily knees over toes Kettlebell workouts without any issue. Anyone there that actually got hurt doing it this way?

Incidentally, if you watch the video from the 15:45 mark you can see him do the deadlift his way and the guys comments and faces in response - to the point.
 
@19disciple44 Kneesovertoesguy is doing a trap bar deadlift which is somewhere between a conventional deadlift and a squat. It's not about "knees going past toes". And for a regular kettlebell swing, it's not about whether it is okay that your knees go past the toes.

A squat is a different movement pattern than a hinge. Both should be trained.

You can do your swings vertically and squatty. It is not dangerous if done right. But it sort of sounds like you have a difficult time getting the hinge working and are looking for an excuse to not do it. The skill to do both things is a very good thing to have. One might be easier for you, but you should be able to do both. Then you can choose which ones you'll be doing as they have their differences in what they are working. You might like the quad focus but one of the things that kettlebells bring to your life is way more focus to the posterior side and that is often lacking.

Do both if you want. It can be in the same session, or a different day, or even a different cycle/program.
 
@juancarlos My post is definitely a confirmation bias post, it is just where I am coming from. But I am genuinely interested in the technical answers on the why/not and am learning a lot here. Thank you.
 
@19disciple44 The above response should answer your question. There is no right or wrong between these swing types. The classic swing is a hinging movement that primarily works your posterior chain. The variation you mention, squat swing, is a variation that works your quads and glutes. I think I first saw that on Joe Daniel's channel.
 
@19disciple44 The arm is not supposed to be used to pull the bell upwards, right? Therefore the only way to accomplish a swing is to impart forward momentum on the bell, and it then traces an arc upwards simply because it’s connected to your arm.

To express force forwards, your hips travel horizontally, with your shins remaining vertical and still. Any upwards movement (ie squat) is therefore wasted work. The knees over toes movement you describe is a squatting movement.
 
@19disciple44 That deadlift is a trap bar deadlift, which works the legs differently from a straight bar one. Not least because the bar doesn’t get in the way it allows for more knee flexion.

As for the swing, sure you can do a squat style swing, but it won’t work the legs in the same way as a hinge based one.

As another commenter said, do your swings with a hinge, then do other exercises focused on knee flexion.

EDIT Just to say I do actually happen to mirror some of Ben’s ideas and principles in my own training, mainly as a counter to all the sitting I do for work.
 
@19disciple44 Think of a jump pattern. You can jump up or jump forward. Swing is more of a forward jump/sagital plane load vector, but different peoples biomechanics will create subtle variations in hip/knee rhythm. Let feel be your guide.
 
@19disciple44 I can't comment on any of his techniques stuff regarding weightlifting and/or combining it with kettlebell ballistics, but as a 41 yr old who regularly practices KB sport (specifically long cycle), the large volume of jerks with weights ends up being pretty hard on the knees. I do a lot of his stretching/knee rehab work and it's been an absolute game changer for countering that, I got his books (you really only need the basic knee one unless you want to do more back/etc stuff) when my knees had started getting sore and flaring up. I started doing his exercises and my knee pain went away in literally two sessions, so as far as I'm concerned, he's definitely onto something.

Now I do a session of his stuff at least once a week or two and my knees feel great. The only way I combine his stuff with kbs is that I do his super long lunge (I forget what he calls it-ATG lunge or something?) with a 16kg bell held overhead, I do it as part of my warm up to help loosen up hips and get the knees going into maximum flexion. That's pretty much it as far as combining KB work. He is also a big fan of sled work, I don't do any of that though, just the knee fundamentals stuff, and in my anecdotal experience, it's great.
 
@19disciple44 Your "knees over toes swing" hasn't got anything to do with what kneesovertoesguy preaches. The video you show is the high handle trap bar deadlift. Knees over toes is quite common in that motion anyway. The direction of the force is also different and allows the knees to be under quite a bit of pressure. Your "knees over toes swing" is different because it's completely inefficient and due to the direction of the force it doesn't have close to the same positive effect on the knee compared to the deadlift shown in the video.

You can do other exercises than swings. If you want to load the legs, knees, and ankles, do another exercise like the ATG split squat. It would also be much more effective than this swing you're doing.
 
@19disciple44 To put it simply, there are ranges of flexion that become more and more unstable for any movement. You can train to the extreme range or stay within zone of stability. It all depends on your goals.
 
@lois2013 Come to think of it. I figure this speaks the point Ben Patrick makes - assuming I understood him right: Injuries happen in the range of those more extreme="knees over toes" ranges of flexion - because they are not trained.

The example he gives repeatedly is basketball players landing on one leg after a high jump. A leg position where the knee is over the toe. High impact, common place of injury.

So maybe the truth is this: We know it is a weak spot. We assume, reasonably, that there is a risk even to train in that range.

However, Ben Patrick comes along and says: If done right it will make your knees stronger and and injury will be less likely.

I am thinking this through for the first time here, for what that is worth. I appreciate the opportunity!
 
@19disciple44 The kettlebell swing style is generally hardstyle vs a sport style.

You may prefer doing kettlebell cleans instead of swings, there is a bit more squat motion in that.

It’s like comparing a broad jump vs a vertical jump. Jumping from standing for distance, or broad jump, is more like the hardstyle swing. More knee flexion than necessary and you lose power for distance, it’s just not as efficient.
 
@19disciple44 You can train yourself to do something wrong and get very good at doing it the wrong way. Putting your body out of alignment increases your risk of injury substantially. Maybe you don’t get hurt but you only get one body so by take that risk? Why, when lifting heavy, would you want to put all that stress on your angles and have your body tilted forward on the balls of your feet? It’s less efficient as you should be driving up through your heels.

So, did this guy get very good at doing it that way? Yes, he did. But when you look around and see almost no one doing it that way—just about everyone warning of the dangers of doing it that way, in fact—you should be asking yourself why. Maybe the entire fitness community for the last several decades has been completely wrong about the safest and most efficient way to lift, but is that likely? Probably not.

Ultimately, you’re going to train the way you want and that’s fine. You’ve trained your body to do it wrong and that’s now how you like to do it. It didn’t hurt you. You say you got stronger. What I have to wonder is how much better you would be if you had done it correctly from the beginning.

Right now you’re looking for a way to justify the bad technique because the reception to your videos has been critical to say the least. But maybe instead of trying to fine the one outlier that supports your position, ask yourself why is it so hard to find people recommending that style. Why are your methods so criticized and unpopular? Why does almost no one do it that way or recommend it?

Form and technique exist to maximize efficiency and minimize the risk of injury. Time spent in recovery is time spent not training and there is the risk of permanent injury. You ignore them at your own risk. You have been told by multiple people on this sub why what you’re doing is ill advised. But you do you.
 
@19disciple44 I think he’s making a positive impact, a lot of people would benefit from looking into his Knee Ability Zero program, and Tib Raises + the ATG split squat have likely become a permanent part of my warmup routine.
 
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