Got my first ever FULL Iron Cross in 10 months!! (AMA)

[angels777]

@summer63 I'm 62, and happy with the few skills I have. When I look at it objectively, sure I'm 62, I also spend an hour and a half doing ring and bar stuff 5 days a week, I like this stuff

I'm afraid regular gymnastics would turn into something requiring too discipline for me.

Honestly, I've seen what it takes watching a few of our guys go into elite and NCAA gymnastics. However I just enjoy playing, and this is play. Even if all I wanted was a foam pit, there's no place for guys my age to go and play that way.

 

[summer63]

@angels777 Ah, I see. I'm very happy for you as well. Thank you for sharing your experience w/ me!

 

[angels777]

@summer63 Really, I watch "Power Monkey" stuff as well, Durante is cool. Just to round out my education.

The reality of it is, I prefer to be functional, as opposed to just plain out strong. I'm 5'5 so being plain out strong is not an option, being able to continue to move my own body weight through space well, keeps me functional .

Personally, I don't see myself entering WSM contest anytime soon.

 

[summer63]

@angels777 I see what you're saying.

What you mean is you prefer relative strength to absolute strength, and also the ability to move your body around (closed chain movements vs open chain movements).

Hahaha, well maybe if all ring specialists do squats and deadlifts- we might have a fighting chance!

 

[dbuley]

@summer63 Hey man, i started pushing towards the iron cross too but after working out full body(almost everyday) for some time now, i started getting pain in my collar-bones. I just want to know if you experienced such drawbacks, because i hear the iron cross is one of the hardest ring exercices

 

[summer63]

@dbuley I haven't had pain in my collarbones- but I've had mild tenderness/soreness at my sternum area. While many people have panicked over the fear that it might be a fracture or bone issue, a close friend of mine who is a trained physical therapist by degree and gymnastics coach by profession has reassured me that what people think is sternum/bone pain is more likely muscle pain/strain.

If you are following the progressions carefully and gradually, and experience mild soreness on the collarbone (even the kind that hurts when you sneeze or cough sometimes), then rest at least 1-3 days (a week if need be)- that's what I did whenever I had my sternum tenderness/soreness.

Yupp, the iron cross in particular is especially strenuous on your upper torso/mid-riff, more so than planche- which is more about shoulders/protraction/biceps/wrists/posterior pelvic tilt.

 

[holisticherbgirl]

@summer63 Nice work. Did you train butterfly at the same time? I’ve been training butterfly mostly consistently for about 3 years but feel like I’m nowhere near an iron cross. I can do it with -40 lbs at a BW of 140.

 

[summer63]

@holisticherbgirl Hi there! I've seen your posts both here and on GB- you're one of the OGs. I trained cross pullouts if ur referring to whether I've done concentrics or only held isometrics for time as long as I could.

Butterflies are tough, and I'm probably only start working on them sometime in the next month or so- I'll need to figure out how to do it with my rings set up (probably will need a feet-assisted platform and bands/straps to scale it).

 

[holisticherbgirl]

@summer63 Have you considered building a pulley system?

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View this content on Instagram

 

[summer63]

@holisticherbgirl I've already built a dream machine and am currently using it for higher-level (combination) elements! Let me tag you in the previous comment. In the meantime, I'll add this to my OP.

please continue your questions/comments tho, I'm happy to hear from one of the pioneers

 

[summer63]

@holisticherbgirl Responding here to your first comment which you had edited (continued):

I've found that while training advanced / combination elements on the dream machine is very unique and useful, and builds muscle memory for these specific elements, the conditioning of the elbows and strength built in the muscles I listed in my OP need to be built thru more strenuous conditioning of the muscles / CNS / tendons / ligaments.

I've listed some plateau breakers in my OP which might assist and help you break thru your plateau as well. They're all in my iron cross specific exercises / progressions list!

I think programming is one of the key ways to progress. In my case, I work exclusively on rings (no bars, with the exception of handstand and planche work on parallettes). Additionally, I focus primarily on straight arm movements / exercises / progressions.

Lastly, I increase my progressive overload (reduce resistance) during every session.

EDIT: I took the time to look carefully at what your capabilities are like- and based on the clip that you posted, as well as other posts you put up before:

• You seem to be able to do full planche and inverted cross (with ankle straps)? ==> Your elbows (and perhaps front delts) look quite ok and conditioned to me. That being said, I did notice your elbows being bent on the way up from the butterfly- but that's probably because it is a hard element.
• You likely have the bent arm strength. Your straight arm strength, as mentioned, seems fine. I suspect your raw (absolute) strength might not be particularly high as you are relatively light- even if your relative strength is exceptional.
• I suspect you have not trained your elbows joints, torso muscles (specifically the sternum, maybe lats and rear deltoids) and CNS to take on strenuous weight in the cross position. So, you need to do more isometrics, if you do concentrics- you need much higher weight- I'd say 80-95% of your bodyweight.
• Lastly, you need to do more front/victorian lever and (weighted) pull up work- anything to build your rear. I think you have strong pushing strength, but your back and rear delts are lacking.

This are just my assessment based on a glance. Try my progression exercises in order over the next couple of months and let me know how it goes- if we need to make any changes, we can do that after observing how you go with this program at the moment.

 

[holisticherbgirl]

@summer63 I do not train on bars or parallettes any more either. I tried adding weighted pull ups and dips but I got bored and my workouts would last too long. I promise you my elbows are completely locked out when it comes to the butterfly. You’re right that I don’t train any isometric cross holds. I remember Stephen saying that isometrics weren’t necessary to add to my routine and it was fine to train the dynamic butterfly movement primarily. Also I’ve plateaued with the Victorian. I can’t seem to move past -45 lbs without my form starting to suffer in under 5 seconds but I prefer to stick to -50 lbs so I can hold it with strict form for at least 10 seconds. I was just doing the inverted cross for fun with -70 lbs and don’t really want to put too much effort into it because of the sheer difficulty. I can’t even hold a consistent handstand on floor or parallettes much less on the rings. I should probably start doing more band assisted front lever rows then?

My main goals right now are the butterfly, pelican and Victorian cross but focusing on butterfly and relearning the ring full planche because I lost it due to not training over Covid. I’m down to -20 lbs at the moment.

 

[summer63]

@holisticherbgirl Those are very ambitious goals. I think before butterfly (which I know you can do on the pulley system), aim to hold an actual iron cross isometric (e.g. 2-12 secs depending whether there is band resistance) on the rings and maybe even strapped/band/platform-assisted cross pull outs (for concentrics).

For Victorian, do front lever work first- then front touch lever, then straight arm front touch lever (incredibly difficult, even for ring specialists gymnasts- see: Manuel Caruso or Danny Rodriguez). Also, you can do victorian levers on pbars (tucked, advanced, half/front lay, full)- this would be much more attainable.

For Pelican, I don't know too much about that yet, so I won't comment.

Yes, concentrics (e.g. butterflies) are the most bang for buck- but scale them appropriately. Your goal now is to hold a cross- not do a butterfly- so do cross pull outs. Once you can hold an actual cross- start working cross pull outs at a slightly lower position than parallel (with 80-95% bodyweight)- and then work from there. That's the approach I would take (and will be taking in the next few coming months when I start training unassisted pullouts / assisted butterflies)!

For front lever- I would get a waist-level set of rings or low-level bar, hold the resistance band on both hands and lean back on the resistance band (pressure point should be at your waist / butt)- see my front lever progression ig stories.

Separately, you might want to practice your pbar and straight bar handstand- you can do a planche, but not knowing how to hold a still handstand will prevent you from doing 90° presses and whatnot. Make sure you lock your elbows at the top when doing handstands too. And once in a while, start your handstands from tuck press ups, pike/straddle, etc.

 

[holisticherbgirl]

@summer63 The dream machine is different from the counterweight pulley system. The dream machine will always reduce your weight by 50% so to increase the resistance you need to use either a weighted vest or ankle weights.

 

[summer63]

@holisticherbgirl Yupp, I understand the difference between the two.

Due to set up constraints, I'm relying on my dream machine (50% bodyweight) and have 10-20kg vests, kettlebells totalling up to 40kg that I can hook onto my vest, and 6kg worth of ankle weights- as this is more than sufficient at my level and for my immediate goals.

As I'm 68kg in total, adding around my entire bodyweight in weights would add 34kg to the original 50% bodyweight (also 34kg)- which would allow me to scale my moves anywhere from 50% to 100% bodyweight. I'll most likely use this current set up to train statics and certain dynamic elements (limited to 1-2 dynamic elements).

However, if I become really advanced and can do an entire routine easily (e.g. 7-10 elements in a row) with extra weight even, then I might consider getting a pulley attached to weight system.

 

[golfwidow]

@summer63 That's amazing congrats

 

[summer63]

@golfwidow thank you!

 

[momrocks71]

@summer63 Congrats this is amazing. I recently began training rings again. I’m thinking about starting some of these progressions but it might not be the best idea. I’m not very good at calisthenics but I can hold the RTO hold fully locked out for around 30 seconds or so. Should I move on to some of these progressions?

 

[summer63]

@momrocks71 Definitely! Just start at the top from normal dips downwards & begin conditioning straight arms! Take things slowly, eat good nutritious food and get plenty of rest between each session (I would recommend at least 1 week between direct IC specific training since you're just re-starting out!)

 

[momrocks71]

@summer63 Sounds good. I was thinking before every chest & tris session I just start/end out with one these progressions? Just one set till failure? I train chest/tris twice per week.