How does progressive overload ACTUALLY work?

[brianlee3271]

@pinetowntree Thanks for the example, that definitely answers my question. Basically going to or close to failure is great for the last set, but just because I’m a few reps from failure on early sets doesn’t mean those sets aren’t productive. Got it thanks.

 

[emmierose80]

@brianlee3271 I think you already have the right idea. In your method each set is taken to roughly the same RIR - you’re right in saying that doing each set in a linear fashion would mean some sets being quite far from failure.

Don’t overthink it, to be honest either is fine. Just keep going.

 

[tay796]

@brianlee3271 The biggest misconception about progressive overload is that it's responsible for hyperthrophy. It's actually a by product of hyperthrophy.

You do a workout or a series of workouts -> if they are challenging enough you gain muscle -> with that new muscle you can lift more weight or do more reps. You don't gain muscle because you did more reps or lifted more weight, does it make sense? Progressive overload ensures that you aren't stalling your workouts to the point they aren't challenging enough to generate hyperthrophy.

Now, going all out everyday and not progressing is another beast entirely, but in short: Protein synthesis is key not only to our capacity of growing new muscle, but also recovering the muscle you already have. Let's say we all have a pool of protein synthesis of 100. If you do a challenging workout, lets say you use 80% of that pool to recover, and 20% to grow new muscle. If you do a really hard workout, that recovery number might reach 100%, and you won't have anymore to build new muscle. That number can go even beyond 100, meaning your recovery demands are higher than you can recover from, this leads to a build up of fatigue.

 

[latimert]

@tay796 so basically as long as i’m lifting heavy to or close to failure that’s the most important

 

[asperd]

@brianlee3271

Based on what I’ve seen for my next workout I should do 8 reps across the board, then the week after 9 reps, and so on until I get 12 reps for each set, at which point I would increase weight.

Progressive overload doesn't have to work like that. On big lifts, its generally easier to add 5lbs to the bar than to add one rep to your current working load. A 12RM of 135 lbs is roughly equivalent to 189lb 1RM. The 8RM equivalent is I think 152 lbs. You don't have to wait until you hit 12 reps of 135 lbs to promote to 140 lbs. If you can do 9 reps of 135 (174lbs 1RM est), there is a good chance you can do 8 reps of 140.

If you want to know if you are progressing or not, look at how well you move the weight on the bar. I'm on a cut and lost reps on DB Incline Press. The dumbbells I was used to 3 months ago feel unwieldly after losing 8.8 lbs (-10.1 lbs if we're going by scale weight snapshots instead of 7-day averages). Strength gain/loss is obvious. It's obvious I'm not eating enough and the cut has been taking too much out of me. You spent most of your time cutting. So naturally after you have milked out your newbie gains, you're going to struggle to make gains on a deficit. In fact past a certain point, you will start losing reps on a cut. You can't just deprive your body of carbohydrates when 70-75% of muscle is water and expect to be strong. Glycogen is roughly 3 parts water, 1 part glucose.

 

[junior59]

@brianlee3271 progressive is across a longer interval than per set in the same work-out. All progressive overload is is adding weight progressively over time, usually on the order of weekly for most beginner to intermediates, but can be over course of month(s) or even entire mesocycles for more advanced trainees (might take 3 months of training to add 5 pounds to bench when you're close to your peak potential).

Progression strategies vary but basic ones:

Linear progression- add weight every session. Suppose you do 5x5 135 lbs this week. Next week do 5x5 140 lbs. Week after do 145 lbs, etc. Will hit a ceiling relatively quickly unless a true beginner.

Double progression (close to what you outlined). Set a set target (3) and a rep range (maybe 8-10). You want to be able to hit that weight across all sets. Suppose I did 135 lbs for 10 reps, 10 reps, 8 reps- I didn't quite hit that target so try again next week. Next week I get 10 reps on all 3 sets, add 5 lbs and repeat for 140 lbs (shouldn't be able to hit 10 reps on all 3 sets). You can also adjust individual sets separately, etc. Many ways to do it.

Deloading is a completely separate topic. Usually you want to aim to take a deload week every 8-10 weeks or so, basically do lower volume or lower weight temporarily just to give your body time to recover. Your body grows when it's resting not when you lift. Lifting is just the mechanism to trigger your body to grow, but the actual growth happens when you're recovering or sleeping. Deloading just helps give your body a bit extra time to recover once in a while. I tend to not target deloads, I just naturally have some weeks where I'm busy and can't get to gym every session, or I'm out of town for travel. I take those times as an implicit deload and only schedule a deload if I go a really long duration undisturbed.

Don't overthink it though, it's basically, lift heavy, and lift heavier in future.

 

[brianlee3271]

@junior59 Thanks for the information! That double progression seems close to what I was already doing, but instead of matching RIR it’s about matching sets. I think I’ll implement that for a few months and see how it goes from there.

I definitely do think I just had a bit of the wrong mentality of needing to go hard for nearly every set in order to progress. Clearly it’s relevant in some cases, but I think it made progression harder for me to track in the sense that I get a wide variation of reps (due to being close to failure on early sets) Appreciate the comment

 

[junior59]

@brianlee3271 Yep exactly. I will say that while RIR has its place and can absolutely be a good tool, I generally discourage people from using it, especially as beginners. RIR is *hard* to gauge properly and often what I feel is a RIR 1 is likely more like a RIR 2-3. Going to failure every set is probably not optimal if every set is taken to true failure, but what majority of lifters deem as failure probably is more like a RIR 2.

I also prefer doing a reverse pyramid, so I'll warm up to a top set, do target set, then drop some weight and repeat for set 2, then drop some more weight for set 3, aiming to hit the same rep target. Each set is taken pretty close to failure but decreasing weight helps account for fatigue across sets so relative effort is about the same. I'd probably start with just following progression as written (flat weight across sets) just to keep it simple and only adjust one variable at a time, but that pyramiding might be a good next step after that.

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@brianlee3271 Before all, do a Dynamic Double Progression.

That consists in treating every set individually. So for example you have 3 sets for an exercise, rep goal of Set 1 is 6, and for Sets 2 and 3 rep goal is 10. So once you hit 6 reps with a certain weight on Set 1, you elevate the weight next workout on that specific Set 1. If you reach your rep goal in set 2, you increase the weight on set 2 of the next workout. And so on.

Go near failure (3 to 0 reps close to failure) or to failure specially on isolation exercises

for most of my lifts I would do 3 sets, leave 1 rep in the tank for Set 1 and 2, then go to failure on the last set.

Good.

I’ve now done some research and found that it’s best to deload

Yeah, every 2 months or so.

I’ve also found conflicting information, and I don’t understand how to balance progressing while not overtraining.

It's normal. Specificity Principle is king in building muscle, which means that each body is a world on its own. So making reliable science about it is close to impossible. There's very few things we know nowadays. Your body will tell you when you're overtrained. You won't overtrain from doing 135 pound bench 6 sets a week, don't worry

To me this seems counterintuitive, since I’m doing less volume on a workout plan where I don’t have “excess” volume.

It is, in fact, counterintuitive. Take deloads only when your body and mind ask for it.

Also if I’m not going to or near failure until the last set, how am I progressing?

You're not progressing or you're progressing less except for the last set, of course. That's why I would introduce DYNAMIC double progression instead of plain double progression like you're currently doing.

I don’t get the concept of majority of my sets being relatively far from failure.

And you should be thankful to yourself to not get it, and to have a critic way of thinking and wanting to search for the best and for the truth. You don't get it because it's not what you should be doing to progress. Chris Bumstead told this clearly to David Laid recently:

. And with this I think I don't need to explain any further.

 

[brianlee3271]

@maxmillianmichieli Cool thanks for the great information. Makes a lot of sense and I’ll definitely look into it

 

[needheaven]

@maxmillianmichieli Ive never tried DDP but it seems like it would look like a reverse pyramid set most of the time but with smaller weight jumps, at least after the first few weeks.

 

[maxmillianmichieli]

@needheaven It depends. It really progresses each set on its own. What is rare is lifting the same weight in all sets. Most of the times your second set is the one with more reps, but sometimes is your third set. And if you reach your rep goal on the first set, that's the one with more reps. With this method you're making sure every set gives stimulus.

 

[h_hiltonhudson]

@brianlee3271 tbh you probably don’t need to deload. you’re not moving weight that is taxing for your tendons or where you’re going to accumulate massive overall fatigue.

try out a dynamic double progression method.

3 sets of X weight (6-10 reps). raise weight 5 lbs once you can hit 10 reps

you can already hit 135 for 12 on set 1. so start out with:

set 1: 140 (6-10)
set 2: 135 (6-10)
set 3 135 (6-10)

let’s say you hit 8 on set 1. it stays at 140. but you hit 10 for set 2. next week it goes to 140. set 3 you got 7. it stays at 135. so your next workout will be

set 1: 140 (6-10)
set 2 140 (6-10)
set 3: 135 (6-10)

and just keep adding 5 lbs per set when you can hit 10.

also you dont need to do 6-10, you can play around with different rep ranges. but whatever you decide on, stick with that rep range for a good 8-12 weeks.

 

[brianlee3271]

@h_hiltonhudson Thanks for the thorough breakdown

 

[gracious65]

@brianlee3271 Progressive overload is just a metric for showing what your doing is working.

If you are not seeing progressive overload, it tells you that you aren't making the relevant adaptations session to session.

This can be for a few reasons, in most cases it's fatigue. I feel alot of people really struggle to understand volume and end up just chucking alot of sets at something. Which means you likely won't be recovered for the subsequent sessions (even though you might feel okay) stopping you seeing Progressive overload.

Another reason can be a progression method that is to fast for your current advancement. I.E if I aim to add load at the same reps every week I will not see PO. It is to aggressive a progression method for me. However if I do a set of 8 reps at 1 RIR, I might then plan the next week to add 1/2 a rep or even tidy that set up. These smaller more incremental progressions are in line with my current advancement.

Don't overthink it, if your seeing PO your doing something (not necessarily everything) right. If your not you're doing something or multiple things wrong. Adjust training until PO occurs again, repeat this cycle until you get to a point of continual progress

 

[stallions]

@brianlee3271 Youre one year in. Dont worry about periodization. Train near failure and add weight or reps whenever you feel you can. Don't overthink things until youre relatively advanced

 

[vloggle]

@brianlee3271 It is very very simple.
Find a routine and stick to it so that you can actually track your progress. If you change routines all the time you wont know if you are progressing.

Every time you are back to the same day, try to lift either more reps or more weight. If you can do more than last time, it means you progressively overloaded. Dont keep a mental note, actually write down on your phone or paper the weight, and reps and set so you actually know. Because sometimes all it takes is 1 extra rep to know you got stronger

If you are in a caloric DEFICIT, it is normal to not progress in strength. Goal is to push hard so you lose as little muscle as possible while burning fat.

If you are in a SURPLUS, you should be gaining strength. If you ARENT:

You are either not recovering enough, or not pushing hard enough.

There is no other secret.

If you just stick to this and have enough protein there is nothing else you need to do but to find a routine that works.

A lot of inexperienced people waste years juggling back and forth being confused with the endless videos on youtube.

 

[jcreigns]

@brianlee3271 Progressive overload means that you need to increase abselute effort to keep the stimuli the same wheb you adapt. You dont need to increase stimuli if you dont get stronger.

There is no way you meed to do it. Going close to failure on everything is going to get rough when you get stronger.

 

[grandvizier1006]

@brianlee3271 You probably dont need deloads, its typically for strenght athletes (powerlifters…) who need a reset from a training block, they accumulate a lot more overall fatique over time and need a deload so that they can effectively continue a new training block. what you were doing is fine. I always prioritize training close to failure in 8-12 rep range keeping in mind to increase the weight whenever I can. You wont be able to always increase the weight but over the long term it should be steadily increasing little by little.

 

[peacehopejoylove1987]

@brianlee3271 Overtime you get stronger on key lifts with proper form