Does anyone have experience with HPA dysfunction or adrenal fatigue? Basically if i workout with my heart rate up and go past 130 I struggle to sleep that night, i will be up 3 hours later with hot flashes and struggle to get back to sleep. It’s elevated cortisol i suspect but since my bloodwork is done at 8AM (not 2am) it looks like everything is fine. I already take Ashwaganda, Reishie, L theanine, zinc, magnesium Threonate, Vape CBD and a bunch of other vitamins on top of this. I mean this is ridiculous, my body sucks, I use to workout 6 days a week and now can barely manage 2 days a week. My workouts are 30 minutes long, i cant do free weights anymore as they get my heart rate up too much, so I stick to cables and machines. I also go for brisk walks every day of the week, than 2 days a week i do light strength training instead of the walks. I was doing ok the past few months and actually felt like i was healing but recently my sleep is tanking again than i just feel exhausted the next day despite feeling fine while actually working out. Im trying to balance just enough exercise to facilitate healing and increase serotonin and stave off depression without overdoing it. Anyone have experience or tips?
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How long does HPA Dysfunction last?
- Thread starter jigawatt
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- fitness after 30
@jigawatt Not sure of your gender, but if you're a dude have you had your testosterone levels checked? Total and free ideally.
Also seen a lot about serotonin and 5HTP in your past posts. 5HTP made me feel like shit after a while, and increasing serotonin can lower dopamine, which might also make you feel like shit.
For me, increasing serotonin with medication or with supplements just leads to me feeling awful overall. Poor sleep, low mood, no motivation, craving shit food. Maybe cut out the 5HTP for a bit?
Also seen a lot about serotonin and 5HTP in your past posts. 5HTP made me feel like shit after a while, and increasing serotonin can lower dopamine, which might also make you feel like shit.
For me, increasing serotonin with medication or with supplements just leads to me feeling awful overall. Poor sleep, low mood, no motivation, craving shit food. Maybe cut out the 5HTP for a bit?
@yngtex Yeah i stopped taking 5HTP a while ago, switched to tryptophan but than after a while i had too much serotonin. It was keeping me awake and messing with my circadian rythym. I guess my body healed to a point it didn’t need it anymore. I would be taking a dump in the middle of the night, I couldn’t sleep and my body temperature was all messed up. In fact i was having heart problems from too much serotonin so i stopped taking those. They worked for the time i was one them though
@jigawatt Do you work out in the evening? It’s better to work out in the morning, a lot of people will find that exercise interferes with their sleep.
HPA dysfunction is kind of made up.. it’s not really recognized as a legit thing by doctors. More of a pseudoscience/ naturopath thing, not really evidence based.
I personally don’t think all of those supplements are necessarily a good idea. I’ve heard a lot of people say Ashwaghanda had negative side effects for them taken long term. The thing is we don’t really have good research on these supplements to support taking them for the reasons they are said to be helpful. It’s mostly marketing.. especially CBD! If you’re taking these supplements hoping it will cure your depression, I don’t really think they are going to do that. If I were you I would work with a psychiatrist and therapist instead of relying on the over the counter remedies.
HPA dysfunction is kind of made up.. it’s not really recognized as a legit thing by doctors. More of a pseudoscience/ naturopath thing, not really evidence based.
I personally don’t think all of those supplements are necessarily a good idea. I’ve heard a lot of people say Ashwaghanda had negative side effects for them taken long term. The thing is we don’t really have good research on these supplements to support taking them for the reasons they are said to be helpful. It’s mostly marketing.. especially CBD! If you’re taking these supplements hoping it will cure your depression, I don’t really think they are going to do that. If I were you I would work with a psychiatrist and therapist instead of relying on the over the counter remedies.
@myfaith87 You're mixing HPA dysfunction with adrenal fatigue. HPA axis dysfunction in it's various forms absolutely exist and is recognized in the medical literature.
@myfaith87 Im working with a psychiatrist but refuse to go on SSRI's, though it's a moot point as serontin is no longer my issue. It was but than eventually when I reduced my life stressors I no longer needed 5HTP and Trypohan, I had to too much serotonin and it was causing heart palpitations and keeping me awake at night, messing with my circadian rythym. Im doing pretty good now mood wise, except for the fact that I still can barely workout. My body just can't handle stress at all. Also I workout at lunch, I stopped working out in the evening despite doing it in the evening for 15 years.
@jigawatt I'm not sure if I have this or not but I get an exaggerated stress response to any physical activity now, even walking. No better in 7 months. I get bad depression and worse anxiety feelings after any amount of physical activity, and cannot go above 30-45 minutes fo walking because much more than that and my mood is ruined.
Did you ever get the feeling like when you're walking around that you're losing your balance slightly? Like on an unsteady surfrace?
Did you ever get the feeling like when you're walking around that you're losing your balance slightly? Like on an unsteady surfrace?
@erikajc Yeah so im onAPAP right now for sleep apnea and possibly UARSs, so that explains alot. It's mild sleep apnea according to the diagnoses but it felt so severe. Im doing better now though still have to take it easy with the workouts, I've been keeping that 30 minutes and not going to failure like I use to on every set. If I do it will impact my sleep, I guess it's like starting from the bottom up. Not because of muscle but because of the CNS and cardio conditioning has completely gone in the toilet due to the sleep apnea being really hard on the heart. I thought waking up at night with a racing heart was just anxiety, but nope it's from choking. Mild apnea for me is still waking up every 10 minutes choking, so if you are a light sleeper like me that is huge.
@hemis7531 Yeah all i want to do is lift, i mean it barely feels like im lifting anything these days and it still messes me up. Im sure i could drink more water, though i typically cut it off 2 hours before bed since i wakeup to pee every single night. I wakeup 3-4 times a night, has been like for years. Im going in for another sleep apnea test though since the last one i had was three years, they only found 4 events per hour which is just under the limit.
@rab1 Oh yes I forgot to mention I was actually doing better but than I got got COVID, took a few week off but really struggled even more after than. Covid definitely made it worse, but I didn't think anything of it at the time. Are you not able to workout either? I had Covid in November I think.
@jigawatt Hi, I’m /agirlinabook and I’m sorry you’re feeling this way. I’m also a physician, but not one seeing you in person, so I apologize if any of this isn’t relevant or is generally a miss!
I’ll start by saying – your symptoms are real. There are many things that medicine cannot yet explain, and that does not make your symptoms not real even if there hasn’t been something obviously found to be wrong. It sounds like you do not have what we would diagnose as a disorder of either your HPA or your adrenal glands. Of course, our hormones fluctuate up and down over the course of the day and in response to different stimuli- and this is normal. This is what they should do! Fluctuations below the levels that would show up on our tests are therefore in the range of “normal,” though of course everyone lives in a different body and experiences things differently. Unfortunately, an entire industry has sprung up around the idea of ‘adrenal fatigue’ and ‘subclinical HPA dysfunction’ that is really not based on any sort of evidence and preys on people who are doing their best to listen to their body and trying to do what is right.
I don’t know anything about you, other than what’s in your post and other posts of yours, but if you came into my office today and told me exactly this, the top two things I would worry about (with what medical knowledge exists in the world today) would be 1) interactions between supplements 2) anxiety & insomnia.
With regard to 1)- the supplement industry is extremely horribly regulated. One does not actually know what/how much is in a lot of the supplements we can buy freely. Because of the lack of standardization, it is also almost impossible to do real research on individual supplements, and especially difficult to research how they interact with each other. But I can tell you in my time as a doctor, I have treated a LOT of people with adverse effects I can only be traced back to their supplements/vitamins/herbals- all of which they were taking because they were trying to do the right thing to protect and strengthen their body. My general advice, which is the same as most good physicians, is the cut down on this supplements. I would not take more than two. Humans really should not need ANY supplements or multivitamins if they eat a well-rounded diet (unless they have specific medical conditions, of course).
With regard to 2)- let’s talk about insomnia first, because it is common, but hard to treat, and has a huge impact on quality of life. I hear you that you’re waking up most nights- that’s incredibly bothersome, and no doubt makes every other symptom that you’re feeling worse. The body needs sleep! I do expect cortisol after working out maybe elevated, I would expect that more to interfere with your ability to fall asleep, not stay asleep. The fact that hot flashes are waking you also makes me extra suspicious about medications/supplements, and also makes me wonder about your sleep environment. The first, and most evidence based, treatment for insomnia is: sleeping in a cold, dark, quiet room (white noise machine is ok, TV is not ok), going to bed at the same time every night, having a bedtime ritual that is predictable and standardized, using your bed only for sleep, and completely avoiding electronics (& cell phones) at least an hour before bed. Let’s be real- almost no one does these things, not really, even though we say we do. But the fact is, if you manage to do all of that - FOR REAL- and to do it consistently, most people’s insomnia will be fixed. If that doesn’t work, the second step is CBT-i (cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia). I cannot impress on you enough how well this works, though almost no one tries it. With regard to the anxiety – I’m glad you’re seeing a psychiatrist! That’s wonderful. It also sounds like you’ve made really strong progress in decreasing stressors in your life, which is no small feat, and has huge physical and psychological effects. I hear your reluctance to try an SSRI, and that’s fine, but I do want to offer the SSRI’s are not impacting total body serotonin (you mentioned serotonin not being a problem for you anymore), but rather serotonin just in the brain. Other meds that are known to help include SNRIs, TCAs. I also want to offer that being on an anti-anxiety medication like one of the above is not necessarily signing up for a lifetime of that medication- think of it more treating where you are, right now. I also would strongly suggest therapy, or CBT, in addition to seeing psychiatry – we know that mental health treatment works best when it’s a combination of different types of treatment. And anxiety is a huge, huge, huge culprit for insomnia. I’m glad you’re getting another sleep study done, which I think is a great idea- OSA can manifest as anxiety and exhaustion, and certainly wakes you up at night. I also think you should address with your doctor why you are getting up 3 to 4 times a night to pee, especially given you’ve already restricted water two hours before bed. Even if that’s just your normal, and not the sign of a bigger problem, waking up that much is no doubt further exacerbating your sleep problems.
That was long because I tried to explain my reasoning, so I apologize if it was excessive! TLDR, my take home recs are: 1. Do not be on more than two supplements at a time. Seriously. 2. Significantly limit caffeine (literally nothing with any caffeine in it after noon, including workout supplements) 3. Do the sleep hygiene stuff ALL THE WAY 4. Keep considering things that will treat your anxiety, including medicines, 5. Good luck on your sleep study, and 6. Get this nocturia situation checked out.
I’ll start by saying – your symptoms are real. There are many things that medicine cannot yet explain, and that does not make your symptoms not real even if there hasn’t been something obviously found to be wrong. It sounds like you do not have what we would diagnose as a disorder of either your HPA or your adrenal glands. Of course, our hormones fluctuate up and down over the course of the day and in response to different stimuli- and this is normal. This is what they should do! Fluctuations below the levels that would show up on our tests are therefore in the range of “normal,” though of course everyone lives in a different body and experiences things differently. Unfortunately, an entire industry has sprung up around the idea of ‘adrenal fatigue’ and ‘subclinical HPA dysfunction’ that is really not based on any sort of evidence and preys on people who are doing their best to listen to their body and trying to do what is right.
I don’t know anything about you, other than what’s in your post and other posts of yours, but if you came into my office today and told me exactly this, the top two things I would worry about (with what medical knowledge exists in the world today) would be 1) interactions between supplements 2) anxiety & insomnia.
With regard to 1)- the supplement industry is extremely horribly regulated. One does not actually know what/how much is in a lot of the supplements we can buy freely. Because of the lack of standardization, it is also almost impossible to do real research on individual supplements, and especially difficult to research how they interact with each other. But I can tell you in my time as a doctor, I have treated a LOT of people with adverse effects I can only be traced back to their supplements/vitamins/herbals- all of which they were taking because they were trying to do the right thing to protect and strengthen their body. My general advice, which is the same as most good physicians, is the cut down on this supplements. I would not take more than two. Humans really should not need ANY supplements or multivitamins if they eat a well-rounded diet (unless they have specific medical conditions, of course).
With regard to 2)- let’s talk about insomnia first, because it is common, but hard to treat, and has a huge impact on quality of life. I hear you that you’re waking up most nights- that’s incredibly bothersome, and no doubt makes every other symptom that you’re feeling worse. The body needs sleep! I do expect cortisol after working out maybe elevated, I would expect that more to interfere with your ability to fall asleep, not stay asleep. The fact that hot flashes are waking you also makes me extra suspicious about medications/supplements, and also makes me wonder about your sleep environment. The first, and most evidence based, treatment for insomnia is: sleeping in a cold, dark, quiet room (white noise machine is ok, TV is not ok), going to bed at the same time every night, having a bedtime ritual that is predictable and standardized, using your bed only for sleep, and completely avoiding electronics (& cell phones) at least an hour before bed. Let’s be real- almost no one does these things, not really, even though we say we do. But the fact is, if you manage to do all of that - FOR REAL- and to do it consistently, most people’s insomnia will be fixed. If that doesn’t work, the second step is CBT-i (cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia). I cannot impress on you enough how well this works, though almost no one tries it. With regard to the anxiety – I’m glad you’re seeing a psychiatrist! That’s wonderful. It also sounds like you’ve made really strong progress in decreasing stressors in your life, which is no small feat, and has huge physical and psychological effects. I hear your reluctance to try an SSRI, and that’s fine, but I do want to offer the SSRI’s are not impacting total body serotonin (you mentioned serotonin not being a problem for you anymore), but rather serotonin just in the brain. Other meds that are known to help include SNRIs, TCAs. I also want to offer that being on an anti-anxiety medication like one of the above is not necessarily signing up for a lifetime of that medication- think of it more treating where you are, right now. I also would strongly suggest therapy, or CBT, in addition to seeing psychiatry – we know that mental health treatment works best when it’s a combination of different types of treatment. And anxiety is a huge, huge, huge culprit for insomnia. I’m glad you’re getting another sleep study done, which I think is a great idea- OSA can manifest as anxiety and exhaustion, and certainly wakes you up at night. I also think you should address with your doctor why you are getting up 3 to 4 times a night to pee, especially given you’ve already restricted water two hours before bed. Even if that’s just your normal, and not the sign of a bigger problem, waking up that much is no doubt further exacerbating your sleep problems.
That was long because I tried to explain my reasoning, so I apologize if it was excessive! TLDR, my take home recs are: 1. Do not be on more than two supplements at a time. Seriously. 2. Significantly limit caffeine (literally nothing with any caffeine in it after noon, including workout supplements) 3. Do the sleep hygiene stuff ALL THE WAY 4. Keep considering things that will treat your anxiety, including medicines, 5. Good luck on your sleep study, and 6. Get this nocturia situation checked out.
@ranran19 I don’t drink any caffeine, my bedtime ritual is pretty solid and I do everything you listed. True it’s not perfect some days but it’s better than many of the people i know. I wear blue light blocking glasses, read an hour before bed, my room is 65 degrees every night. My wife and I even sleep in separate beds now because of this, so I take my bedtime seriously. I did some CBTi and it did help but it still does not separate the fact that when I workout I seriously struggle with cortisol after the fact evident by hot flashes at 2am. Checking cortisol at 8am does not help me, i guarantee if you check it at 2am it will be high. I went through and am going through a phase of burnout basically, this is according to my naturopathic doctor. Im not surprised since this has been the most stressful period of my life. I’m not getting up 3-4 times a night to pee, sorry if I was not clear. I just wake-up for no reason, I only pee once a night and most of the time it’s a habit now at this point even to pee once a night. Why I wake-up so many other times for no apparent reason is a mystery because I’ve been tested for sleep apnea 3 years ago when my sleep started going downhill and couldn’t make it through the night. I just figure it wouldn’t hurt to get tested again as it’s possible to get a false negative. Regardless, my bodies ability to cope with the workouts and stress in general are due to burnout, I don’t know why everyone denies burnout exists, burnout is real and it messes with hormones like cortisol. Also in addition to too much serotonin giving me heart palpitations and anxiety from tryptophan and 5htp , I also had too much serotonin in my brain evident by the fact it was messing with my circadian ryrhym. It got to the point where I would take tryptophan and would be wired and tired most of the night, I would be running to the bathroom for a bowel movement at 2 am instead of 6 am and my increased body temperature would wake me up just likes it’s morning. This should not be surprising as serotonin promotes wakefulness and is directly involved in circadian ryrhym..
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