@extraneous I used to weigh over 100kg and be quite fat then dropped down on weight mainly by cardio is workouts and eating cleaner. Been dojng body building stuff for about 3 years now and am around 85kg and 198cm tall. I just never seem to be able to get rid of my excess belly and love handle fat. I have dirtied down to 78 kg 2 times and noticed some improvements but just can't seem to get rid of it. Any recommendations as to if I should continue cutting untill I get rid of it all or is it easier to focus on building muscle again and try again next year . I lost too much muscle going from 90 to 78 with this years cutting/bulking cycle
I am a personal trainer with 6 years of experience and have been a vegan for the past 5. I'm here to help, ask me anything
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extraneous
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@xfit12 Sorry for the late response, the thread took some time to kick in and I'm trying to answer between workouts.
OMRON BF 511).
I have to do some assumptions to answer without the data I need for this, I'll guess your diet is as clean as it can be if you've even gone down to 78kg with your height. Now, in general, when you get to a safe weight to do it (and you already are), HIIT is the best protocol to improve fat percentage loss with training. Assuming that you've also done your share of strength workouts, I'd recommend either running or swimming as they're the best option to include muscle mass that do not require especial equipment or a broad knowledge (you still need a good technique and sufficient strength though, that can be included on the program, but again, I need to know what you've done already).
TL;DR: tell me what your diet and training has been (give me a broad answer and specific examples for as far back as you remember) to answer in depth. But for starters, HIIT is the best workout, I'd either run or swim (assuming again proper technique and sufficient strength), and I'd do it 3-4 days a week in sessions of around 30' with as intense and short reps as you can handle with a rest ratio of 1/3 (1 second of work every 3 seconds of rest). Some examples would be sets of 4-6 reps of 20" at maximum RPE (maximum effort, a 10/10), or shorter sets of slightly longer reps up to a max of 45". One last time, that's assuming your diet is as clean as it can be, otherwise that would take priority.
OMRON BF 511).
I have to do some assumptions to answer without the data I need for this, I'll guess your diet is as clean as it can be if you've even gone down to 78kg with your height. Now, in general, when you get to a safe weight to do it (and you already are), HIIT is the best protocol to improve fat percentage loss with training. Assuming that you've also done your share of strength workouts, I'd recommend either running or swimming as they're the best option to include muscle mass that do not require especial equipment or a broad knowledge (you still need a good technique and sufficient strength though, that can be included on the program, but again, I need to know what you've done already).
TL;DR: tell me what your diet and training has been (give me a broad answer and specific examples for as far back as you remember) to answer in depth. But for starters, HIIT is the best workout, I'd either run or swim (assuming again proper technique and sufficient strength), and I'd do it 3-4 days a week in sessions of around 30' with as intense and short reps as you can handle with a rest ratio of 1/3 (1 second of work every 3 seconds of rest). Some examples would be sets of 4-6 reps of 20" at maximum RPE (maximum effort, a 10/10), or shorter sets of slightly longer reps up to a max of 45". One last time, that's assuming your diet is as clean as it can be, otherwise that would take priority.
@extraneous My diet (mainly wholefood plant based) consisted of oatmeal in the morning with protein powder mixed in, a salad with protein(a salad bowl filled with veggies eaten singlehandedly) in the afternoon and a dinner(chilli, curry, those kind of things) I reached around 2000kcal a day with 150-200g protein. Might have been more like 1500kcal at the end of it.
For strength I did p/p/l calisthenics 6 days a week with some core work. A workout would consist of 3 sets of 4 compound movement then some isolation and a core finisher. I slacked with the cardio, started doing rock-climbing the last few months. Kept getting a ton of weird injuries and got corona so I decided to eat in a surplus for time being to regain the muscle.
I also tried to reload every 8 weeks
For strength I did p/p/l calisthenics 6 days a week with some core work. A workout would consist of 3 sets of 4 compound movement then some isolation and a core finisher. I slacked with the cardio, started doing rock-climbing the last few months. Kept getting a ton of weird injuries and got corona so I decided to eat in a surplus for time being to regain the muscle.
I also tried to reload every 8 weeks
extraneous
New member
@xfit12 The most useful advice I can give you for overall health is to stop focusing on protein intake, the ranges we typically see flying around the internet are either in-vitro tests with muscle cells from twenty years ago or directly pulled out of strength athletes that work out twice a day six days a week. An excess in protein intake is harmful for your long-term health as the nitrogen groups present on the aminoacids are toxic for our cardiovascular system. That said, the worst that can happen is to lose renal function and a slight increase in cancer risk, but you could live with only one kidney anyway.
1500-2000 calories is a significant deficit for your height to sustain a healthy weight, it would be for a 70kg individual who does not perform any kind of training. That said, I'd definitely remove empty calories (such as protein powder) and add whole foods in your main meals. Fiber is your friend here, we know that, you can easily eat 2500 calories and improve your performance at the gym while reducing waist line.
Now, for the workout, which is the most important part once you've reached a healthy weight, I'd change the PPL for a whole body protocol, at least two of the three days, as a stimuli of one day a week per muscle isn't enough to promote even strength long-term, even less for a body composition. Putting that aside though, aerobic is what you should be doing most if reducing body fat is your objective. three sessions of 20 minutes (which could perfectly be performed after the strength exercises, in a concurrent training programme), focusing on short intervals of high intensity (I'll start with 45" with 90" of rest at RPEs of 7-8/10 as you haven't been doing aerobic lately, and progress to 15-20" with 45-60" of rest with RPEs of 9-10/10 in a couple of months).
As a final note, I'll point out that refusing to train on a gym with proper equipment is like trying to eat a soup with a fork, you could do it, it's just not efficient. I don't like gym culture myself but it has better tools for any objective you want to accomplish than a few squats/push-ups or even a calisthenics park can achieve.
1500-2000 calories is a significant deficit for your height to sustain a healthy weight, it would be for a 70kg individual who does not perform any kind of training. That said, I'd definitely remove empty calories (such as protein powder) and add whole foods in your main meals. Fiber is your friend here, we know that, you can easily eat 2500 calories and improve your performance at the gym while reducing waist line.
Now, for the workout, which is the most important part once you've reached a healthy weight, I'd change the PPL for a whole body protocol, at least two of the three days, as a stimuli of one day a week per muscle isn't enough to promote even strength long-term, even less for a body composition. Putting that aside though, aerobic is what you should be doing most if reducing body fat is your objective. three sessions of 20 minutes (which could perfectly be performed after the strength exercises, in a concurrent training programme), focusing on short intervals of high intensity (I'll start with 45" with 90" of rest at RPEs of 7-8/10 as you haven't been doing aerobic lately, and progress to 15-20" with 45-60" of rest with RPEs of 9-10/10 in a couple of months).
As a final note, I'll point out that refusing to train on a gym with proper equipment is like trying to eat a soup with a fork, you could do it, it's just not efficient. I don't like gym culture myself but it has better tools for any objective you want to accomplish than a few squats/push-ups or even a calisthenics park can achieve.
@extraneous I did ppl 6 days a week with 1 rest day. I managed to squeeze in way too much fiber when dieting, that was the only way I was able to keep up with the deficit
Nice to know I should stop focusing on protein. I only do that when I am cutting. The rest of the year I just focus on whole foods and reaching a kcal surplus.
The calisthenics is just as I enjoy it more. I like gymnastics, calisthenics and climbing more than just weight training(I do train legs in the gym and occasionally push) I gained insane amount of muscle in my back(went from 1 bad rep Pullup to 10 perfect forms in 1 year or so). I might switch it up with some blocks of pure bodybuilding in the future for aesthetics though.
The calisthenics I did was mostly on ring's. I did a lot of backlevers, skin the cats, pullups, ring dips, handstand and pike pushups and such
Nice to know I should stop focusing on protein. I only do that when I am cutting. The rest of the year I just focus on whole foods and reaching a kcal surplus.
The calisthenics is just as I enjoy it more. I like gymnastics, calisthenics and climbing more than just weight training(I do train legs in the gym and occasionally push) I gained insane amount of muscle in my back(went from 1 bad rep Pullup to 10 perfect forms in 1 year or so). I might switch it up with some blocks of pure bodybuilding in the future for aesthetics though.
The calisthenics I did was mostly on ring's. I did a lot of backlevers, skin the cats, pullups, ring dips, handstand and pike pushups and such
@extraneous I’m not the OP but that’s super interesting about protein intake. So you don’t think the 0.8g protein per lb body weight (or whatever it is) is necessary for muscle growth?
(If it’s relevant I’m female and interested in a lean, toned look rather than building big muscles)
(If it’s relevant I’m female and interested in a lean, toned look rather than building big muscles)
extraneous
New member
@da13ba What I usually tell my clients is that what I think is irrelevant, what matters is the science and understanding how to apply it to our daily lives effectively. That said, I have a higher-than-expected volume of questions and I've answered about daily protein intake here:
Edit: reddit for some reason has decided to oppose me embedding links so I have to just paste them around now, nice.
Edit: reddit for some reason has decided to oppose me embedding links so I have to just paste them around now, nice.
@extraneous You’re so good to answer all these questions, thank you! That’s really interesting and has given me some stuff to think about.
@extraneous Do you think eating high fat (nuts, seeds, PB, avocado) is conducive to health? I have been adding some weight, and find that it's much easier to do with the extra calories from a high fat intake.
extraneous
New member
@sdegrad Stay with me on this one, as gaining weight is never healthy, but that can be okay for you (I've just recently put up 10kg (22 pounds) in two months of a hypertrophy mesocycle myself).
I'll start answering your question directly, all those foods you told me about (even PB) are healthy enough not to diminish your health in a significant way, they're all nutrient-rich foods (especifically for the nutrients that matter for health, which are micronutrients) in addition to be callory packed (or full of the nutrients that matter to gain weight, the macronutrients). No single whole food has only one of the three macronutrients, and with a minimally varied diet you can sustain a healthy adult body.
I've answered here the differences between a healthy food choice and an aesthetic food choice (or what's best to put some muscle up as vegan). I'll elaborate further on it: our bodies haven't evolved to maintain a high-caloric intake for extended periods of time (that's why we have an epidemic of metabolic syndrome and it's comorbidities in developed countries), but it's also not suit to maintain increased muscle mass. Our training protocols plus a caloric surplus diet all increase metabollic rate, which leads to higher risk of cancer even if you're eating healthier. Comparing an unhealthy diet with a healthy one makes this factor negligible as you're protecting yourself against many diseases as long as you don't use drugs during your hypertrophy mesocycles. But gaining and maintaining 10kg of weight which your body wouldn't naturally have will not only burn more calories and require a faster metabolism, it also increases hormonal load just by simply eating more.
A 198cm strongman weighting 160kg has a real metabolic problem and substantially higher chances of cancer, but a 170cm 80kg hypertrophy can rest asured as long as she/he stais clean.
If you want further reference about diet/caloric intake and lifespan I refer you to the blue zones studies, summarized in books such as this one.
TL;DR: you won't get any significant health detriments with any diet as long as you keep it whole foods and don't use drugs for hypertrophy, but bigger bodies put a strain on our metabolism even if the weight we're gaining is mainly muscle. You will most likely be okay gaining 10 kilos and eating a slight calloric surplus of any whole food for a few years, but slimmer bodies are always.
I'll start answering your question directly, all those foods you told me about (even PB) are healthy enough not to diminish your health in a significant way, they're all nutrient-rich foods (especifically for the nutrients that matter for health, which are micronutrients) in addition to be callory packed (or full of the nutrients that matter to gain weight, the macronutrients). No single whole food has only one of the three macronutrients, and with a minimally varied diet you can sustain a healthy adult body.
I've answered here the differences between a healthy food choice and an aesthetic food choice (or what's best to put some muscle up as vegan). I'll elaborate further on it: our bodies haven't evolved to maintain a high-caloric intake for extended periods of time (that's why we have an epidemic of metabolic syndrome and it's comorbidities in developed countries), but it's also not suit to maintain increased muscle mass. Our training protocols plus a caloric surplus diet all increase metabollic rate, which leads to higher risk of cancer even if you're eating healthier. Comparing an unhealthy diet with a healthy one makes this factor negligible as you're protecting yourself against many diseases as long as you don't use drugs during your hypertrophy mesocycles. But gaining and maintaining 10kg of weight which your body wouldn't naturally have will not only burn more calories and require a faster metabolism, it also increases hormonal load just by simply eating more.
A 198cm strongman weighting 160kg has a real metabolic problem and substantially higher chances of cancer, but a 170cm 80kg hypertrophy can rest asured as long as she/he stais clean.
If you want further reference about diet/caloric intake and lifespan I refer you to the blue zones studies, summarized in books such as this one.
TL;DR: you won't get any significant health detriments with any diet as long as you keep it whole foods and don't use drugs for hypertrophy, but bigger bodies put a strain on our metabolism even if the weight we're gaining is mainly muscle. You will most likely be okay gaining 10 kilos and eating a slight calloric surplus of any whole food for a few years, but slimmer bodies are always.
@extraneous Thank you for such a detailed and helpful answer. I have always intuited that a slimmer, lean body is healthiest. But for ego reasons, I wanted to add some muscle to my frame, though I don't think it would ever exceed 10kg, unless there is some considerable fat gain too.
I am thinking of stopping the bulking as I have never felt more sluggish and unhealthy! At the end of the day, what is more important, health and longevity or aesthetics?
I am thinking of stopping the bulking as I have never felt more sluggish and unhealthy! At the end of the day, what is more important, health and longevity or aesthetics?
extraneous
New member
@sdegrad
The logic behind this is as sound as it can get. Sadly though, aesthethics reign in our egocentric society and a bigger body will always be praised over a stronger or healthier one in our day-to-day, this is the main objective of most long-term workouts.
Image is everything and the repercussions of these choices will be present many years after we lose the body we're craving for today.
The logic behind this is as sound as it can get. Sadly though, aesthethics reign in our egocentric society and a bigger body will always be praised over a stronger or healthier one in our day-to-day, this is the main objective of most long-term workouts.
Image is everything and the repercussions of these choices will be present many years after we lose the body we're craving for today.
elizottino
New member
@extraneous Been vegan for about a month now. I’ve been tracking my body fat with a weighing scale. For the past two weeks I saw my body fat % go down but my lean muscle mass is also going down. Am I not taking adequate amounts or protein or should I weight train more?
extraneous
New member
@elizottino Good question, and I can bet my arm that the problem is insufficient caloric intake, which is the most important factor to maintain body weight. Now, if you're losing fat faster than muscle, a slight increase in calories and training volume can leave you more ripped than ever before. That said, plant-based diets always include exponentially more fiber and water than everything else, so you either have to find foods richer in calories (substituting beans with pasta, adding bread and other cereals, slightly reducing fruit intake to increase everything else would work for starters. You can also introduce thick cereal shakes such as oatmeal smoothies which helps break the fiber, increasing the caloric intake).
I've put 10kg (22 pounds) in two months simply by adding around 700 calories of porridge/oatmeal smoothies/homemade cookies to my diet.
I've put 10kg (22 pounds) in two months simply by adding around 700 calories of porridge/oatmeal smoothies/homemade cookies to my diet.
thailandmissionary
New member
@extraneous Vegan, love strength training. I have some irregular periods even though I was eating near 2300-2500 cals. I wanted to lose body fat whilst maintaining muscle.
I'm 67kgs, 165cm and work out 4x a week and walk over 12000 steps a day.
Not sure if I should lose the body fat held on my stomach? Not sure of maintenance and daily caloric intake....sorry for the ramble.
I'm 67kgs, 165cm and work out 4x a week and walk over 12000 steps a day.
Not sure if I should lose the body fat held on my stomach? Not sure of maintenance and daily caloric intake....sorry for the ramble.
extraneous
New member
@thailandmissionary Hit me up with some more information and I can give you a deeper answer, I need to see how a typical day of eating and a session of your workout is.
For now, anyways, number-wise you're spot-on where I'd tell you to be to start training to lose belly fat.
The training most likely lacks high-intensity interval sessions and we can tweak your diet a bit.
I'll also recommend you do a monthly bioimpedance (depending on where you live, it can be done at a pharmacy for a couple of euros). We need to know where your percentages of body fat and muscle are. Abs in males start to show around 13-15% body fat for obliques to 10% for rectus abdominis.
For now, anyways, number-wise you're spot-on where I'd tell you to be to start training to lose belly fat.
The training most likely lacks high-intensity interval sessions and we can tweak your diet a bit.
I'll also recommend you do a monthly bioimpedance (depending on where you live, it can be done at a pharmacy for a couple of euros). We need to know where your percentages of body fat and muscle are. Abs in males start to show around 13-15% body fat for obliques to 10% for rectus abdominis.
@extraneous If a skinny person just want to gain muscle (not fat) should they still have a calorie excessive diet or just focus high protein foods and wieght training? Why do I keep hearing people with PTs being advised to „bulk up” and eat everything they can? Is it easier to gain muscle if you’re also fatter?
extraneous
New member
@johnnyray Sadly, our bodies haven't evolved with efficient mechanisms to gain muscle mass without gaining body fat. Simply because we didn't have such an eady access to calories as we have nowadays until only a few decades ago. Thus, yes: the most important factor to build muscle mass is caloric intake, BUT it does not mean to eat a surplus of 1000 calories. You'll always gain some fat while bulking, and you definitely gain more muscle mass if your diet has a higher surplus, but a 300-500 caloric surplus is more than enough to build a couple of kilos a month with as little fat as possible.
Vegan diets tend to favor caloric deficits because they're rich in fiber and water, so losing fat after bulking up is fairly easy and more efficient than trying to increase your intake minimally and breaking yourself on the gym.
As a final note, diet is always paramount in body composition changes, even to build muscle mass, it's way more important than even the training you do. You can't put weight on the scale if you don't eat it from the plate.
Vegan diets tend to favor caloric deficits because they're rich in fiber and water, so losing fat after bulking up is fairly easy and more efficient than trying to increase your intake minimally and breaking yourself on the gym.
As a final note, diet is always paramount in body composition changes, even to build muscle mass, it's way more important than even the training you do. You can't put weight on the scale if you don't eat it from the plate.
