Internalized misogyny and sports?

@lorial I've been struggling with a similar obsession over gender related strength and muscle mass differences this past year, because I'm afab non-binary and currently have a testosterone-based system (injections) but eventually want to go back to an estrogen-based system (natural) after a while so I don't get "reverse dysphoria" and remain androgynous. I also aesthetically prefer the female shape I guess. I noticed a lot of strength gains on T that I'd be sad to lose again. But they may or may not have happened at some point without T!

It doesn't even make sense for me to feel "inferior", never did, because none is better than the other and...I don't even train for muscle mass and all my strength goals have to do with what I can do with my body weight. And I've seen lots of women do what I want to do (more advanced calisthenics skills, completing harder bouldering problems, doing parkour, doing gymnastics etc.)

Women tend to have advantages in recovery, flexibility and also excel in extreme endurance events (there is a point where the advantages/disadvantages "switch" if you can say it like that), and fitness is so so much more than just strength and speed!

I think by now I'm at peace with it! For now I'll stay on T and wait for more permanent changes, no idea when I'll stop
 
@lorial I think the huge issue I had with navigating strength building and gender norms was the fact that women and girls typically aren’t associated with strength or encouraged to be strong in any capacity. The narrative often times is “boys are strong, girls are weak”, instead of acknowledging that strength isn’t a two-dimensional concept that is dependent on comparison. The Rock and Michael B Jordan are both strong but you wouldn’t compare them and call MBJ “weak” because he isn’t as strong as the Rock. I think us women need to undo the way we associate strength with our womanhood, and we don’t need to buy into the narrative that you need to lift the same weights as men in order to “finally” be strong. Comparing yourself to those who are born with performance enhancement drugs in their body isn’t fair to you and your self esteem, but I’m glad to read that you are talking to your therapist about this. It’s a good topic to speak about.
 
@lorial So I’ve done sports on and off my whole life, but I can really empathize with navigating gender norms.

Can I ask if you were raised in a conservative household? Mine was moderately conservative. My parents-who are genuinely nice people- let me play sports, and encouraged my academic pursuits, but I was still raised with different rules than my brothers. One of the most important things growing up was for me to be “ladylike,” and that idea was reinforced from a young age. I think hearing that dialogue early inherently makes you self-conscious in certain areas. As a 30 y/o, my relationship with my parents is loving and understanding, but there are moments when I go to do or say something around my family, and something inside of me locks up. It’s like I’m automatically policing myself in a way I wouldn’t around my husband or friends. Those expectations really stick sometimes, necessary or not.

What I’m trying to say is this: when you don’t have that ingrained self-consciousness or gender-expectation in you, I think joy, or rather enjoyment (living in the moment) comes more naturally. Like, think about being an average 11 year old in gym. Boys run as fast as possible, try to be the strongest, but it’s fun! It’s still play for them. For adolescent girls, it’s an opportunity to look bad, weird, or ”””””””unattractive,”””””” and god forbid if you do something “manly” or fuck up catching the ball, right?

You mentioned at the top of this post having “PE trauma,” and more than anything, I hope you reclaim that sense of fun you didn’t get to have. I know you aren’t seeking advice, but I would be remiss to not offer some. Since I only ever played sports around other girls/women, i never had to feel weird during gym because I got to “play” in safe spaces. I didn’t care if I “messed up” or was slower than the boys because my teammates cheered me on during our time. That made me confident enough to join co-ed sports later. Maybe it’d be good to join a femme only gym/team to help reframe things? I wish you nothing but the best!
 
@jaxon13 Yup I was raised in a conservative household and society with a lot of policing + sexualization of women's bodies and sports. Because of that, I was expecting to maybe feel "sexual" when undressing to exercise, or to feel hyper-aware of the male gaze. But I didn't feel that way - instead I just got these existential feelings of being physically "lesser", and realized I was still holding a lot of fears about my body vs men's even when they're not physically present.
 
@lorial This is so so well put! I also grew up in a family where ideas about gender roles were pretty ridiculous, and didn't have the ability to leave behind some of that internalized misogyny until I left home for college. Other complicating factors are that I have a genetic condition that decreases my VO2 max, so despite being in shape I get winded easily - made me feel for a long time that I had no place doing "active person things."

I think what finally helped me turn things around was living with a male roommate who was really scrawny and short but still considered himself an athlete - he was also haunted by the specter of the 6' guys on his hockey team absolutely smoking him in every physical aspect, but he didn't let that stop him from working really, really hard to get in shape.

It made me realize that a) plenty of men have the same weird faux genetic inferiority complex thing going on, we just have to collectively decide to get over it, and b) there are SO many athletes out there, male AND female, who judge your value as an athlete not based on your performance but on your dedication? like there are so many people who will be genuinely impressed by you committing 100% to making it to the gym 4x a week or going for a run every morning, even if you remain weak / slow, and remain completely unimpressed by the guy who sure, lifts more than you, but lacks that level of dedication.
 
@lorial I think of it this way. On average…men are built to outperform, women are built to outlast. Those are two different types of strengths. We just have to live with the reality as well as we can. Men will gain muscle faster, they have faster reflexes, and the average man will be better at performance-oriented athletic activity than the average woman. Whereas women will live longer…in any situation that’s just a stakeout. Not only would we live longer if everyone was put to starve on an island…but somehow we live longer just in modern society. This isn’t a small deal. I’m not trying to start some dumb Reddit argument about “who has it worse”…what I’m saying is…the term “weaker” is by itself is an incomplete term. Weaker how? Depends on what your goal is. Tryna gain muscle fast or run sprints? Tryna stay alive in a drought? Depends on the goal.

Here’s another perspective. I have EDS, which is Ehlers Danlos Syndrome. Basically…it’s complicated and genetic and it makes it so that I get injured easily and have higher marks of inflammation and am generally fighting an uphill battle with pain. Any exercise I do…is like…I’m never going to get the same results as some other people, and I’m working just as hard. If I let that get to me, I might stop taking care of myself (and I actually had a period of time in my life where I let it deeply get to me and it was nothing but bad for me). But if I can keep my mind on my own self-interest and what’s good for me, I recognize that I should exercise anyway to get the best possible version of reality that is possible for me. Idk…kind of reminds me of how you said that it might not be worth working out or improving if men are always going to be stronger. Sure…there will always be people (many of them men) who are stronger than you or me…but should either of us make our own lives worse bc of it? I’m not saying that being a woman is the equivalent of having EDS or anything else for the matter, I’m just specifically pointing out that the logic of “well my efforts won’t get the same exact results as someone else’s effort so why even bother” is a train of thought that really hurts us.
 
@ladydimples Even my very traditional mother used to tell me the same thing - "men are built to be strong right now but women are built to endure". I'm glad you reminded me of that and how the "competition" mindset also reeks of internalized ableism.
 
@lorial Are you mixing up sports with working out/exercise? The point of sports is competition, so I'm confused by what you are writing.

I'm a 49 year old woman who has been to war and I never once felt that men were around to dominate me either in the gym or in a deployed setting. It may be something as to how you were raised to think like that.

To answer your question I haven't had to unlearn any patriarchal or misogynistic narratives about exercise or really anything in my life. If this is what's been taught, I must've ignored it through my life and I guess I still am ignoring these types of thinking.
 
@sameertyagi Uhhhhh I'm rather concerned you've never had to think about patriarchal narratives considering the widespread sexual abuse in the army + how famous the US army is for sexual abuse in deployment, but 🤐
 
@lorial Please look into Casey Johnston's She's a Beast newsletter (aka swolewoman on insta). It's really helped me seek out strength training as a means of feeling better about myself inside and out.
 
@lorial I had hard time building up confident to go to freeweight section. I am not lifting heavy weights. (Bicep curls 8kg/arm) but still want to use smithmachine or barbell. After going there for 3-4 times I felt easier and more comfortable.
And I have been confronted by a male in that section. I was doing basic chest press with dumbells and a guy came there and asked why I was using bench and 2 different size of dumbells. Like I was so suprised and said that I am working out. He then continued to say that I should not be in the gym if I am using so light weights, like i should be at home and use sugarpacks. Like wtf. I said to him that I am paying same membership as he and I have every right to be there and use whatever I want. After he huffed on puffed a different guy next to me said to him to piss off. The guy walked away and I had panic attack after that. But yeah. Like there are some guys that are mean and use misogyny against you, but 90% of gym user do not pay any attentions to you.
 
@lorial I think for me patriarchy manifested in that I wasn’t allowed to exercise at home bc when I did it I took up too much space and was too “loud” (going up and down the stairs, walking, or jogging.) I was often yelled at by my dad or shamed by my sister who was jealous she could not exercise. I’d often get beaten in basketball by my cousins who were older and larger than me and instead of being told to get better at basketball I was told they’re boys and boys are bigger and play more sports so they will always win and i will always lose.

Then I do have PE trauma as well. I’d often come home sick on the fitness testing days because of how much I’d have to push myself, or there were days my periods were debilitating but that wasn’t taken seriously. Or we’d be forced to run a mile in a heat wave. And I was so unathletic by that point and probably suffering POTS and sleep apnea which causes exercise intolerance. By this point I just joked all the time I’m unathletic but then was also shamed for that bc I “should exercise” but when I did I was shamed again.

People say do what you liked and there were things I LOVED and craved to exercise and play all the time— basketball and swimming. where I lived my parents could not afford to sign me up for those things. And yet when I begged them every weekend to take me to a park with a basketball hoop or an open swim at a local high school (you know, the sort of free community things that exist exactly for this reason) nobody would make even an hour on the weekend, and I know they had the time. and I wasn’t old enough to drive myself, and there were some big fat highways separating me and the park so I couldn’t walk there.

For a long time I’d also felt faint whenever I stood and still feel it (finally seeing doctors about it and demanding answers) and just accepted that I’m simply not cut out for exercise. It’s not my thing and it never will be.

In college I read exercise helps with studies and I couldn’t focus for shit which meant taking 5 hours for something that takes one hour. I tried it out and went too hard at once and would get too weak. But I’d also get winded very very easily. I’d “take it slow” and still get winded. I finally got diagnosed with sleep apnea by chance. Now I can take it slow and actually not be winded. I can “push through” when it gets tough instead of almost fainting and gasping for air. However I still feel like I can’t breathe during the day, so I’m going to look into that.

So for me it’s manifested in just being shamed, taking up too much space, and not being given the time of day (literally), not having my aspirations taken very seriously (I wanted fo play basketball so bad!) and now seeing that any parent should thank their lucky stars their kid is aspiring to play a sport and get outside rather than sit on the iPad and watch cocomelon all day.
 
@lizav This feels extremely familiar, specifically how social institutions are built to support male sports but so few are built to support women's sports. Thanks for sharing your experience, this is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to hear about. And maybe you have asthma!!!
 
@lorial The fact that males are so much stronger than females is honestly one of the reasons I don't really give a shit about any physical performance improvement. That and I'm much worse in every fitness aspect than most women. So I just go through the motions mostly.
 
@lorial I don't think I ever felt this, but I always loved sports (including PE) and when I was kid I'd often run or workout with my father, who was the most active at home and he loved when I tagged along and was always very supportive of me doing sports in general (he was a firm believer that sports keep kids away from drugs).

Currently, my main sport is powerlifting, which is one where the differences between male and female performances are huge and I still don't feel like that at all. It's just genetics, for me, just like for a huge part of other animals.

That being said, I was never too competitive (just with my previous self) and was never gifted at any sport, I just really like doing it... I guess I'm a dopamine addict!
 
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