May have to stop being a natty, testosterone finally checked and way low

@viajesen1 If feel like there's a middle ground between what each of you are saying.

And, are there side effects, or should we only talk about it like it's a wonder drug?

I know it's more rare, but physical performance, mental clarity, and mood might take a dive if you have a stroke.
 
@martinaidung Is there evidence that trt is attributed to more than a very minor increase in risk of a stroke? And is that increased risk not easily monitored with routine bloodwork?
 
@viajesen1 Last year's TRAVESE trial was reassuring, but it comes on the heels of the TOM trial (stopped early because of cardiovascular events) and a subsequent VA retrospective that found a risk. And even the authors of TRAVERSE made it clear they weren't studying the story of people that end up at the sort of "low T" clinics that have sprung up in the last decade or so.

Although curiously, subjects receiving testosterone replacement therapy had high rates of heart arrhythmias like atrial fibrillation (which is a frequent source of clots that cause strokes), as well as an increased risk of acute kidney injury and pulmonary embolism (thromboembolic event, which includes a stroke). Despite all the money spent on a big study like this, curious results sometimes don't have clear explanations and could very well be random. A big asterisk to the study is more than 60 percent of participants dropped out before the end, and of those that stayed they were only followed for three years (and were only on TRT for two). So we have a bunch of people jumping ship for unclear reasons and it's not exactly long term.

There are other risks, such as prostate cancer. As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out, because that sort of thing really does demand long term follow up in a big study which, to my knowledge, doesn't exist.

Hypogonadism can and, for many patients, should be treated. But lots of people want to get swole, fuck hard, and be the gunner they were are 20. Whether or not that's realistic when you're 50 is as much about the philosophy of medicine as it is about the practice, even tip-toeing into the question of what even is disease? I see the other comment you left about Adderall. That's another medical question with similar discussion going on in the background (e.g. Adderall and viloxazine treat the same thing but surprise! Patients seem to want the amphetamine - are we just treating ADHD?).

Long exhale. As long as everyone is clear on risks vs benefits and acting scrupulously, whatever, get juiced. I just think the "low T" industry has very much not been that. Caveat emptor.

Oh and one other thing

And is that increased risk not easily monitored with routine bloodwork

Stroke risk is a calculation (with something like CHA₂DS₂-VASc). You can modify risk factors (like medications you are taking) but there's really not "stroke test" in routine blood work. And those test that do exist are often about whether there is a clot somewhere (like a pulmonary embolism or deep vein thrombosis - this is assuming you aren't symptomatic, which is a whole other mess). To find it often requires something much more extensive.
 
@viajesen1 I mean, it’s not hard to source Adderall, but I’m not popping those all the time either.

Edit: and just because you specified, there’s nothing special about bioidentical compounds
 
@jakeesonjon45 I think the point is that for many patients, popping Adderall often makes them feel good in a sort of nebulous way beyond treating ADHD symptoms. It's also sometimes given for treatment resistant depression, but that's off label.

So with that in mind, just because it makes you feel like a superstar doesn't necessarily mean you should take it. Or maybe you should, that's the heart of the disagreement.
 
@militantmon Not really for a female…. But I take test and I feel the best when I’m around 275. I don’t lose weight or build muscle faster… I just FEEL so much better. My level was 17 when I started!!! The first Dr wanted me to stay at 80 with the capsules that she inserted … but the ups and downs were awful so I went to weekly shots. I’ve been on it for 7 years now?
 
@scott2511 Did you get all your other stuff checked as well?

My blood work came back with T levels similar to yours and also low vitamin D. Doctor said it's probably related, so I started taking lots of vitamin D supplements (like 25k/day) and my T came back up to mid-400's.
 
@ashwalker I already take 5000 IU of Vitamin D per day and my blood levels showed 45.5 ng/mL with 30-100 as a normal range.

Pretty much all my blood markers are really good except two:

* Testosterone -223 ng/dL (300-1000 normal range)

* BUN/Creatinine Ratio - 23. But that's because I'm supplementing Creatine daily 5g. All other makers for Kidney and Liver are fantastic.
 
@scott2511 If you have a medical need for it, who cares about the technical natty label? Would you rather be healthy and energetic or enter bodybuilding conditions for natural geezers?

Just don't go taking double the dose and posting here that we should all be ashamed for not achieving what you have and you'll be fine.
 
@scott2511 I would say that if you’re getting treatment for low T and you’re just getting it back into normal physiological levels, then you’re still natural. I have no opinion on w whether or not you choose to do the therapy otherwise. Do what you think is best for your health.
 
@scott2511
Also, help me to overcome the feeling of failure if I have to move to TRT to really resolve the low hormone levels.

Sorry, I just don't get the fucking stigma, and this pride/ego based "natty" status. Like, even if a lifter uses, they still have to put in work to get results. But here, you're legitimately in a situation where you have a physical need? Like, do you give yourself shit when you have a headache or a muscle ache and take ibuprofen? I don't see it as any different.
 
@benstarkey29 I can’t speak for everyone, but for me, it’s not about it being a stigma. I just don’t want to rely on something that I don’t actually need. Hence the OPs question around whether it’s worth it to wait and try other (natural) things first if he’s not experiencing negative symptoms.
 
Back
Top