Please don’t kip in your handstand push ups

[oddrob]

@channel7 I don't disagree as much as I see some contradiction in:

• Being a Crossfit coach since 2013 and advocating against kipping;
• Advocating exclusively against kipping in the HSPU.

Kipping in bar movements is much more dangerous to the shoulders than kHSPU, even worse under exhaustion, and used much more frequently. Still the injury rate in both is abysmally low. I've never seen or heard of someone injurying themselves in neither movements. IMHO It's simply because there are more factors in play. In the case of the kipping on the bar, mobility. With a restricted shoulder mobility the movement becomes less efficient, what disallows the person to really push through dangerous ranges of motion. In the case of the kipping on the HSPU, the body works as a unity, if an exhausted athlete is unable to control their eccentric and is losing bracing on the core the movement efficiency is greatly reduced, they're probably not going to be able to string a lot of reps, reducing the proposed impact in your OP.

You make the argument that the issue is exhausted athletes unable to control the eccentric motion. The exact same thing can happen to sHSPU. If you're barely touching the mat during the strict HSPUs you're still fresh and strong. As you get closer to fatigue, and the strict movement demands much more muscle resistance than the kipping, you're bound to become slower and slower while stringing reps along. And that invariably means resting on your head.

I find 1) also somewhat disingenuous because using proper form one should always be bracing their core and having active shoulders, even during the recovery of a kipping HSPU. If someone is relaxing in the bottom of the kipping this person will do exactly the same as fatigue sets in during a set of strict HSPU.

In regards to 3)

I suppose you don't program high rep deadlifts and any form of barbell/dumbbell squats or presses in your workouts? This caracterization of the strict HSPU as a "slow strength" movement is completely arbitrary and isn't really bound by any "scientific definition" is it? Are strict pullups also a slow strength movement? A "slow strength" exercise is one close to your max effort. If you can only do 2 strict handpushups, they'll be slow. If you can do 30 they'll be fast. The same applies to literally every strength exercise ever. HSPUs aren't different in any regard. Other possible application of "slow strength" movements is hypertrophy, by adding tempo to the equation. But this isn't mandatory, one can perform deadlifts/squats/presses/HSPUs as fast as possible or controlling the tempo, there's no one right way.

Additionally the case has been made to me in the past that the intensity of the workout or WOD must remain high in order for it to be effective. I disagree with this too because while intensity is important and necessary, moving safely should be paramount.

Safely based on what? The evidence you provide is anecdotal, and while it makes sense there's no exhaustive research being made to detect what exactly is wrong with kipping HSPUs, if there's something wrong with it. This is an opinion piece, well grounded in some aspects, I admit, but still an opinion piece nonetheless.

There are personal trainers who say deadlifts are dangerous and on first sight they indeed look dangerous. What's the counter argument for them? Research.

 

[channel7]

@oddrob You just compared oranges to bananas my man. You make a great point but I feel like you’re picking apart more of my word usage than anything.

Plus people oftentimes never see someone sustaining one of these injuries but working in multiple physical therapy clinics over the years I can tell you that these injuries do happen. They’re just hidden most of the time by athletes not wanting to appear weakened.

As to the kipping pull up vs the kipping HSPU, the kipping pull up does have the risk of a slap tear but this is minimized by proper warm up and mobility and by not treating the kipping pull up as a scale to the strict pull up. When performing the kipping handstand push up the way to minimize risk is to soften the head blow to the ground but when people are exhausted they tend to just crash to the ground on their head.

When I’m exhausted in a deadlift giant set I can just drop the bar.

Oh and yes a lot of it is anecdotal and definitely my own humble opinion but I do believe everyone else will see the results of this in a few years when numbers of stenosis cases arise.

 

[oddrob]

@channel7

You just compared oranges to bananas my man. You make a great point but I feel like you’re picking apart more of my word usage than anything.

Your words are all I have and in this reply you make absolutely zero effort to address what should be the slow component of a strict handstandpushup. I also can't see any missrepresentation in what I said. Slow reps and fast reps are within a same gradient, they're not split apart by the type of exercise.

I'm not replying to you in bad faith, but I can only answer/question what's been written, can't read your mind. And yes, of course I'll answer to your post in every point it makes, that's how you take someone seriously, by replying to everything they have to say. If you think I'm picking apart your word usage one thing you could do in your reply is help me understand why a strict HSPU is a "slow strength" exercise, or what even constitutes a "slow strength exercise", for that matter.

Plus people oftentimes never see someone sustaining one of these injuries but working in multiple physical therapy clinics over the years I can tell you that these injuries do happen. They’re just hidden most of the time by athletes not wanting to appear weakened.

Don't doubt it, just giving my anecdotes. Though I think there should be some methodology being applied as to determine exactly "how dangerous" one exercise is, don't you think? Without hard data we're bound to confirm our own biases. You may see a lot of injuries due to kipping HSPUs over the years in physical therapy clinics, but they may or may not be as frequent as you percieve them.

When performing the kipping handstand push up the way to minimize risk is to soften the head blow to the ground but when people are exhausted they tend to just crash to the ground on their head.

Well, yes. But how doesn't it apply to strict HSPUs? Repeating what I said in my first reply:

In the case of the kipping on the HSPU, the body works as a unity, if an exhausted athlete is unable to control their eccentric and is losing bracing on the core the movement efficiency is greatly reduced, they're probably not going to be able to string a lot of reps, reducing the proposed impact in your OP.

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You make the argument that the issue is exhausted athletes unable to control the eccentric motion. The exact same thing can happen to sHSPU. If you're barely touching the mat during the strict HSPUs you're still fresh and strong. As you get closer to fatigue, and the strict movement demands much more muscle resistance than the kipping, you're bound to become slower and slower while stringing reps along. And that invariably means resting on your head.

Literally all the difference there may be in how you perform strict HSPUs when exhausted to how people perform kipping HSPUs while exhausted is that you may just stop trying to get one more rep when you're not feeling tight. Self control. And that's applicable to both forms of HSPU, as a counter-point: If I say I stop trying to kip as soon as I feel like I'm losing bracing and control of the eccentric, it wouldn't mean they're any less dangerous is your opinion, would it?

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When I’m exhausted in a deadlift giant set I can just drop the bar.

Well, of course, my point is towards your vague definition of "slow strength" exercise. If you're performing a giant set of deadlifts you're probably pulling them pretty fast, aren't you? Because as I said, there's no such thing as "slow strength" exercise. If you're performing a giant set it's with a comfortable enough weight that you can pull them pretty quickly.

 

[dawn16]

@channel7 So don’t jerk because it uses momentum.
Don’t even push press, still using momentum.

Also run with your hands in your pockets, because moving your arms back and forth is again using momentum.

 

[channel7]

@dawn16 This isn’t even a viable argument.

I won’t even both to explain the differences in movements to you.