Programs like 5/3/1 and training for strength VS size

[cathyj]

Hi guys,

I'm just your average Joe training to get as muscular and strong as I can be.

I'm a big fan of stuff like the 5/3/1 system because it's stupidly simple and you know exactly what you're going to do when you go into the gym. You just plug your lifts into a spreadsheet and you know what you're doing for the day, with assistance work as you feel is necessary.

I've seen countless debate about how this type of training (waving percentages on the big lifts + 50 reps of push/pull/leg assistance work each training day) is more for strength than size and how if you're concerned with size it won't give you the results you desire.

This has confused me a lot and I was wondering if someone could explain to me like I'm 5 years old why this is the case. It seems like a different style of training to me but I can't see why doing this for the next 5 years should give worse results than doing your typical upper/lower style bodybuilding split? All the ingredients are there: progressive overload, big bang for your buck compound movements with isolations at the end, etc..

One argument I can think of off the bat is that smaller muscles like side delts and biceps get neglected, but again there's no reason you can't do that for your assistance work or just adding it on top.

 

[braynman]

@cathyj

explain to me like I'm 5 years old

Hey little buddy! Imagine you have this awesome energy juice, and when you play with your big, strong toys (doing the big lifts in 5/3/1), you use up a lot of that juice. Now, the little toys, like your side delts and biceps, they're cool too, but because you used up most of your energy juice on the big ones, the little ones don't get as much energy and attention.

So, 5/3/1 is like having a super fun time with your big, tough toys, but by the end of it, your energy juice is kinda running low. And that means the smaller toys might not get all the playtime they need to grow big and strong. That's why some folks like to mix in other playtimes (bodybuilding workouts) to make sure ALL the toys in your muscle toy box get their fair share of fun and energy juice!

 

[williamjwilson]

@braynman You know what - that is the best fucking explanation of strength training vs bodybuilding i have ever seen.

 

[dawn16]

@cathyj My standard PSA re “strength training” (copied from another thread):

“bodybuilding training builds strength. What is commonly referred to as “strength training” just trains the skill of 1RM of SBD and (maybe) OHP. You don’t need to do a “strength” block or “strength” work unless you have a specific goal to improve your 1RM of one of those compound barbell movements in the immediate future. A bigger muscle is a stronger muscle.”

Now, to get to your specific question, 5/3/1 is fine, but since some of the training is in lower rep ranges for the purpose of increasing 1RM, that training is not super efficient for muscle building. But if you otherwise do bodybuilding type assistance, you will certainly add size.

 

[easy813]

@dawn16 God you described my opinion on the whole "strength training" thing so eloquently I just came

 

[dawn16]

@easy813 thanks man. I’ve seen this be an issue so many times I finally created a post I could reference on it.

 

[lyndsey]

@dawn16 If the only issue with a particular program is rep range, there isn’t really an issue. 5/3/1 is not the greatest example simply because you can set it up however you want.

Its associated with powerlifting because of its author and the focus lifts, but the baseline program is an upper lower split.

If you make your training max lighter, the work weight is lighter and you end up in a higher rep range. 3x5 is now 3x10 with a final set at the end to try and hit a rep PR. Sort of a don’t toss the baby with the bathwater situation, at least.

Basically anything that isn’t a peaking program can be manipulated or set up to better suit an individual’s goals.

 

[dawn16]

@lyndsey Sure, but at some point you’re manipulating the program beyond its original intent/structure. Not to say that’s a problem, per se, but if you’re hitting 3x10, can it really be called 5/3/1? Fwiw, this is more a labeling issue than a structural issue, as far as I’m concerned. If you did exactly as you say, and assuming appropriate proximity to failure, it’s a fine program.

 

[lyndsey]

@dawn16 I see the “program” as the split and progression scheme where things you tailor to your own interests are exercise selection and volume. I personally had my best deadlift gains while my 5 + week PR sets were hitting 12 reps or so.

Obviously this isn’t the case with every program but I just meant for 5/3/1 specifically there are like 50+ different versions of it, so simply shooting for 8 reps on your heaviest sets on your 1+ weeks doesn’t mean you created a new thing you have to call 12/10/8 or anything. The intent if the program is to gain strength and size over long periods of time.

 

[dawn16]

@lyndsey I see the “program” as also being targeted towards a specific goal, but really, this is semantics. I completely agree that general organization and progression plan is the key, especially with something like 5/3/1 that is more of a general training scheme than a singular specific program.

 

[muskieman]

@cathyj Alot of people probably can get get big from doing 5/3/1 but I think in pure bodybuilding terms it's not optimal.

If you want size and strength then it may be perfect for you.

I ran various versions of 5/3/1 years ago as a late beginner/early intermediate, it worked for a time but after about 6 months the upper body size gains were non existent, the volume was just not enough for me, but still I banged my head against the wall trying to make it work because everyone online was hyping the program up, probably my biggest training regret is wasting so much time trying to make it work.

From a bodybuilding point of view I feel like most of the sets being programmed as percentages of a training max are just a complete waste of time as they are basically just warm ups and I don't feel the need to always be doing some version of the big 3(4) when the main goal is adding size.

This is based on the older programs from years ago I'm not up to date with the latest 5/3/1 stuff, I wouldn't be able to go back to a pre written program now, I want to pick my own exercises/volume/rep ranges that I know work for me, one of the reasons I prefer bodybuilding style training over strength training is the flexibility and less complicated nature of it.

 

[justincann]

@muskieman To defend a program I also no longer run and have similar conclusions. Keep in mind 5/3/1 came from a West-side guy who got sick of basically having no athleticism other than waddling up to a bar for a 1RM and wanted to change that. And about 80% of the program is tailored to his current love of strength training for high school football (again, a major theme of his is general strength to be applied to athleticism or athletic goals)

The training max and other ramp up percentages that "don't do much" are all fatigue management on essentially a general powerlifting-esque program. The entire RPE/RIR of the program is ridiculously low for any purposes other than general strength training. Shooting for a 0-2 RIR is the well established science for hypertrophy. But if you were to actually do that for real with back squats, regularly for sets of 3-5 in a day its going to drive you face first into a wall. Or RIR will be entirely determined by your core/back giving out, not the legs. The low RPE is assuming as a general intermediate strength lifter, lots of bar touch practive with lots of opportunity for perfect form and reps is probably the best way forward.

Which is fine. The program works by progressive overload via always dropping 5lbs/10lbs on the training max like absolute clockwork and rounding out the program with "do 50 push/ 50 pulls and 100 legs and abs....no i won't elaborate on what exercises or set/rep scheme."

 

[stencil]

@cathyj 531 is not 1 workout - its a way of training and there are 100 ways to do it.

In its most basic form for bodybuilding - 531 would be 531 BBB with 5s pro. That means on an example bench day you would do 5 reps of bench at 65%, 5 reps and 75%, and 5 reps at 85% your training max. Then you would do 5 sets of 10 reps at say 55%. Then you would do 50 reps of push, 50 of pull, and 50 of core. This is very much geared towards strength and bodybuilding...ie powerbuilding.

The difference of this type of 531 workout and say RP is that 531 heavily focuses on the big 4. RP focuses on all muscle groups. So back might be done before bench some days in RP. There is a focus on incline, side delts, etc. You can do all of this too with 531 but its not required. Its also harder to do all of this in 531 because after 5x10 of squats, your body is shot. You might not walk for 2 days. You stress you system a lot, whereas bodybuilding workouts should have a much easier recovery.

531 is one of the most customizeable workouts out there but since its not mandated to have a bodybuilding focus, people don't always look at it that way. The reps and sets in 531 all hit bodybuilding levels, especially 5s pro which is the latest variation. But the biggest difference is the focus and stress on the body. 531 is great. I love it. But I also love SBS, RP, etc. Do them all. Switch it up. Have fun. They all work.

 

[aram]

@cathyj You will get bigger and stronger doing any structured program with progressive overload.

If you’re trying to optimize your 1 rep max, low rep strength training will be more optimal.

If you want to get all your individual muscles fuller, aesthetically proportional, and symmetrical then a bodybuilding split will optimize for that by giving you more precise control over molding the individual muscles.

If you don’t plan on doing powerlifting meets or bodybuilding competitions, then just pick a structured program you enjoy and you will get generally strong and jacked over time as long as you keep overloading and manage your calories to your BF % goal.

 

[dawn16]

@cathyj Sets taken close to or past failure are what grows muscle most efficiently. 5/3/1 doesn't involve taking most sets to failure. Most of the sets will be very far from failure. So it's not the best way to stimulate muscle growth.

 

[alexandria281]

@cathyj I actually think BB training is way more simple than most PL training.

A good BB program is very intuitive and doesn't require you to know your maxes, percentages and might not even have waves for it to work.

It just requires adequate weekly volume and pushing yourself.

 

[hellofriends]

@cathyj The problem with programs like 5/3/1 is that they treat every exercise that isn't SBD as an "accessory". If your goal is to build muscle, you want to make your muscles go to failure or as close to it as possible. That means that you have to put the same effort in every exercise

Also, a lot of times in SBD, even though you can't do another rep, it doesn't mean that the muscle you want to grow is the limiting factor. Your chest won't grow if your shoulders give up first on bench press. Same thing about squats and quads. That's why a lot of people don't get bigger despite getting stronger in those lifts. They don't go close enough to muscle failure

That doesn't mean that you can't get big with those kind of programs. You just have to understand how to approach the rest of your lifts. That's my personal experience anyway

 

[dawn16]

@hellofriends Why couldn’t you go to failure on your accessories and use those for hypertrophy?

 

[hellofriends]

@dawn16 Because i was a beginner and reading stuff like "just do 50 reps of chest, arms and call it day" made me treat those lifts as an afterthought.

 

[mommajulesberry]

@hellofriends so that's mostly a communication problem between the lifter and the program description. obviously "treat 50 total reps as a guideline to meet using solid bodybuilding principles" could be a valid approach and otherwise 531 just being a sbd template that probably detracts from your training economy for the rest of the bodybuilding stuff to a moderate but manageable extent