Programs like 5/3/1 and training for strength VS size

[dawn16]

@hellofriends Your shoulders are not going to give out first on bench, maybe your triceps would. By your logic, that means you should never do a compound movement.

Also, what do you mean about squat and quads? Quads are the prime mover in a squat, and also will by the first muscle to give out.

I’m also a little confused by your comment about not being able to do another rep of SBD, then saying in the next sentence that a lot of people don’t go to failure on those lifts. Are they going to failure or not?

 

[kaiousama]

@dawn16 My shoulders have ALWAYS been the first to go on bench

 

[hellofriends]

@dawn16

By your logic, that means you should never do a compound movement.

Not really. It only means that you should focus on bringing the muscle you want to grow close to failure. If you can do that with bench press then keep benching. I never said to stop doing those exercises

Quads are the prime mover in a squat, and also will by the first muscle to give out.

I always felt them more on my glutes. It could be because of the wider stance i guess

 

[shel75]

@cathyj Here is a template from Jim Wendler’s blog: https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101075206-5-3-1-and-bodybuilding

I absolutely think you can train to improve strength to in the big 4 using 531, while using the remaining time in the gym to focus on building muscle. Give it a shot and see what works for you!

 

[bobwhite]

@cathyj I think a “good” bodybuilding program should still have a percentage of your volume dedicated to heavy sets in the

 

[consolatio]

@cathyj One of the templates in the original 5/3/1 book was called “Boring But Big”, meaning that the program was so simple that it might be considered boring, but it would get you big (muscular size).

 

[tolch]

@cathyj Cons (and please others chime in if I missed any):
1. The weights used on the main lifts are relatively high, which means lower reps, and that’s not optimal for growth.
2. It’s centered around training the big three (plus OHP), which aren’t the most effective exercises for aesthetics. You miss out on arms, rear/side delts, hamstrings, etc. Yes, you can hit these through accessories but most of the time you’re so gassed after the main lift you just mail it in. This is also an issue if a specific main lift begins to cause pain.
3. The base version of the program doesn’t have nearly enough volume. The top set on each main is really the only set that will lead to adaptation. The other “work sets” where you do 65%x5 and then 75%x5 (week 1) are basically warmups.
4. There are spreadsheets and apps that will calculate each weeks sets and reps for you, plus the reps needed to PR on the mains, but it’s fairly complicated. Using basic progressive overload is much simpler.

Pros:
1. It builds a base of general strength that can carry over well.
2. It teaches you what failure is. After doing 5/3/1 for a while you’ll have a really good gauge of what an RPE 10/RIR 0 feels like.
3. The top set and PR chasing can be incredibly rewarding.
4. This is just my opinion but the deloading is a good thing. Deloads are vastly underrated and underutilized. I will say though that the 3/1 ratio that’s used is probably a little too frequent. A 5/6 on, 1 off is probably sufficient.

How to make it better for hypertrophy?
- Decrease the percentages so that rep counts are higher.
- Use main exercises with better stimulus to fatigue ratios (front squat or hack squat instead of back squat, SLDL instead of conventional, dumbbell incline instead of barbell flat).
- Treat you accessories like your mains. If you want big arms, you have to bring consistent intensity to lifts that target the area. You should be measuring progress and attempting to PR on all lifts.

 

[hoang25mai]

@cathyj A lot of people who respond to this don't know much about 531.

 

[allyssandra]

@cathyj Doing 5/3/1 + stuff that 5/3/1 misses is a fine idea. But it's two different things you are combining together, so it's not just 5/3/1 anymore, it's your own thing.

 

[andrewchase]

@cathyj follwing

 

[dawn16]

@cathyj 5/3/1 is a good one size fits all general strength and conditioning program. It is not a good hypertrophy program.

A better alternative would be something like PHAT or PHUL where you have more flexibility in your exercise selection and can have some days delicate towards lower rep work and other days more pump work. SBS Hypertrophy 2.0 is another alternative if you like barbell lifts.

 

[jesusineedyou]

@dawn16 To be fair 531 allows for a lot of customization as the "core" of the program is such low volume. You could program 531 to be very similar to eg phat, as only 4 exercises are kept at all times, the rest may be picked as ones wishes.

 

[dawn16]

@jesusineedyou Similar for sure, but I’d never do less than 5 reps like 5/3/1 employs.

 

[passiflora]

@dawn16 I’ve been running 531 since the beginning of the year (6 weeks of BBB, deload, 3 weeks of 5x5 FSL, deload, repeat). It’s lots of sets at exactly 5 reps, but actually very rarely less than 5. If I get under 5 reps on anything other than “1” week, I reset my training max.

I will say I’ve found the progress to be less than I’d hoped. My plan was to get to 1/2/3/4 plates and then transition to more of a bodybuilding focus, but I still haven’t reached any of those milestones and also look a bit DYEL.

 

[dawn16]

@passiflora That’s fair. But still, it’s a ton of submaximal work with both the main sets and BBB sets, which just isn’t great for hypertrophy.

The progress on 5/3/1 is slow and I think is far better suited for late intermediates or advanced trainees with S/B/D/O strength goals.

You could reach 1/2/3/4 faster with different programming. Or just drop it all together.

 

[amber61597]

@cathyj Hey bud, I would recommend checking out this video from a few years back by Dr Mike Israetel of Renaissance Periodization. It clearly breaks down and discuss the differences between training styles, how and when to apply them etc.

 

[stickywicket]

@cathyj Like everything else, it totally depends on your goals. It’s been a big trend lately to outright bash anything powerlifting/power building related, and there are good arguments for doing so, but those arguments only hold if optimized bodybuilding is the goal. Just remember- you can be a jack of both trades, or a king of one. Plenty of powerlifters/builders with awesome physiques, but never quite as sharp as a dedicated bodybuilder. A few years of bodybuilding will make you plenty strong, and there are some freaky strong bodybuilders out there, but never quite to the level of a dedicated powerlifter. Point is, really ask yourself what your ultimate goal is, and then go from there.