zone 2 & zone 5 training with KB's (instead of a bike!)

[brownie]

Over the past four weeks, I've committed to a rigorous kettlebell training regimen, expanding my collection to include pairs for double workouts. My focus has been on programs designed by Dan John and Geoff Neupert. During this period, my BikeErg, initially intended for Zone 2 training three or four times a week and one Zone 5 session (influenced by Peter Attia's approach), has taken a back seat.

Traditionally, I engaged in Zone 2 and Zone 5 sessions alongside bodyweight training, particularly following the daily training model popularized by K Boges. However, as I immersed myself in double C & P and Front Squats for time, monitored by a chest strap heart rate monitor, I observed sustained high heart rates throughout these sessions, usually lasting around 30 minutes. It seems the promised conditioning benefits are manifesting.

Now, I'm contemplating whether I can exclusively rely on my dynamic four-times-a-week kettlebell training, considering its current allure and my diminishing interest in the BikeErg. The kettlebell routines have proven engaging and effective, prompting the question of whether they could adequately replace my previous cardio regimen. I'm curious about the feasibility of this shift, given the intensity and cardiovascular impact of my kettlebell sessions.

 

[ant0099]

@brownie You should for sure still be riding that bike. A lot of people get excited by how density blocks can generally make them feel fitter, but the time on the bike is worth its weight in gold.

Despite doing kb conditioning sessions myself with lots of 48kg snatches, I still done zone 2 work & intervals on bikes & Row & ski. It's really hard to replace what building a really good engine can do for you. And in my experience kb training doesn't do that.

 

[hunter101]

@brownie Sure, at least for a time.

I remain convinced that there are unique benefits to doing actual cardio, but focusing on kb based programming for a while can also help you get more out of your cardio once you get back to that.

For example, I did a bunch of double kb snatches, C&P, front squats and swings from April-August and started running again. About the same time I added in King Sized Killer, a heavy single kb snatch program, and that has apparently built sufficient resilience that I can knock out a weekly half marathon 7-8 weeks in a row and keep improving. I'm running 21km in shorter time and about as easy as I did 18km (my then-distance PR) last Autumn, despite being ~9kg heavier.

 

[googs]

@brownie No. It's not the same, and no, you can't use it for the same effect. I can't believe people still think this is true.

Look, when muscle is tensed beyond 50% blood flow is occluded. That means blood doesn't flow through the muscle as muscular tension is too high. No blood flow means no O2 uptake. No O2 uptake means no improvement in your body's ability to use it. Hard to increase aerobic fitness - that is, fitness from better using oxygen - when you're not using it.

If all that was required to increase fitness was a high HR you could go and do a few lines of coke and go to the strippers to get in shape for a marathon.

And av HR for the session if waving up and down isn't the same as sustained HR at the same bpm in terms of the way your body adapts.

I'm not saying there are no benefits to doing extended duration work with KB exercises (or any other loaded exercise for that matter) but it isn't the same in terms of HR response and CV adaptations. At all HRs, loaded training provides less than 70% the same O2 uotake than normal cardio options.

In other words, despite marketing, there is no such thing as one form of exercise to rule them all and cover all bases. If you want to be stronger, then lift weights as that's what they're good for. If you want a better heart and ability to use O2 then do normal cardio. Trying to lift weights to get fitter is as ridiculous as thinking you can run to get stronger.

 

[victoryj]

@googs No blood flow because of muscular tension? Source?

 

[googs]

@victoryj Time to get out from the stone ages...

Here is an abstract - https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjphysiol/54/5/54_5_471/_article

There is a book written by Dr Kenneth Jay that goes into this called Cardio Code. Here's the review I wrote nearly 10 years ago about his book.

This is a good summary of a lot of the material in the book and some basics about the mechanics of it all.

 

[victoryj]

@googs Yeah that’s why I’m asking, I’ve never heard of this before.

 

[googs]

@victoryj Most people haven't as it doesn't align with what they hope to be correct.

They hope they don't need to watch what they eat to get in shape - false.

They hope they can just use one tool to get in shape - false.

They hope they can just lift weights and get all the health and fitness benefits from a more varied and logical plan - false.

And the KB world is filled with cultist zealots who believe what the marketing claims say because that would make their life so much easier.

It's so easy to use logic to defeat all the marketing claims made by people. Just ask one question, "If this form of training is so good, where are all the high level athletes using it?" And in the case of most of it there is zero evidence. Meanwhile, you see the top athletes using a concurrent approach and doing strength AND conditioning. But being honest won't sell many books.