zone 2 & zone 5 training with KB's (instead of a bike!)

[brownie]

Over the past four weeks, I've committed to a rigorous kettlebell training regimen, expanding my collection to include pairs for double workouts. My focus has been on programs designed by Dan John and Geoff Neupert. During this period, my BikeErg, initially intended for Zone 2 training three or four times a week and one Zone 5 session (influenced by Peter Attia's approach), has taken a back seat.

Traditionally, I engaged in Zone 2 and Zone 5 sessions alongside bodyweight training, particularly following the daily training model popularized by K Boges. However, as I immersed myself in double C & P and Front Squats for time, monitored by a chest strap heart rate monitor, I observed sustained high heart rates throughout these sessions, usually lasting around 30 minutes. It seems the promised conditioning benefits are manifesting.

Now, I'm contemplating whether I can exclusively rely on my dynamic four-times-a-week kettlebell training, considering its current allure and my diminishing interest in the BikeErg. The kettlebell routines have proven engaging and effective, prompting the question of whether they could adequately replace my previous cardio regimen. I'm curious about the feasibility of this shift, given the intensity and cardiovascular impact of my kettlebell sessions.

 

[ant0099]

@brownie You should for sure still be riding that bike. A lot of people get excited by how density blocks can generally make them feel fitter, but the time on the bike is worth its weight in gold.

Despite doing kb conditioning sessions myself with lots of 48kg snatches, I still done zone 2 work & intervals on bikes & Row & ski. It's really hard to replace what building a really good engine can do for you. And in my experience kb training doesn't do that.

 

[hunter101]

@brownie Sure, at least for a time.

I remain convinced that there are unique benefits to doing actual cardio, but focusing on kb based programming for a while can also help you get more out of your cardio once you get back to that.

For example, I did a bunch of double kb snatches, C&P, front squats and swings from April-August and started running again. About the same time I added in King Sized Killer, a heavy single kb snatch program, and that has apparently built sufficient resilience that I can knock out a weekly half marathon 7-8 weeks in a row and keep improving. I'm running 21km in shorter time and about as easy as I did 18km (my then-distance PR) last Autumn, despite being ~9kg heavier.

 

[googs]

@brownie No. It's not the same, and no, you can't use it for the same effect. I can't believe people still think this is true.

Look, when muscle is tensed beyond 50% blood flow is occluded. That means blood doesn't flow through the muscle as muscular tension is too high. No blood flow means no O2 uptake. No O2 uptake means no improvement in your body's ability to use it. Hard to increase aerobic fitness - that is, fitness from better using oxygen - when you're not using it.

If all that was required to increase fitness was a high HR you could go and do a few lines of coke and go to the strippers to get in shape for a marathon.

And av HR for the session if waving up and down isn't the same as sustained HR at the same bpm in terms of the way your body adapts.

I'm not saying there are no benefits to doing extended duration work with KB exercises (or any other loaded exercise for that matter) but it isn't the same in terms of HR response and CV adaptations. At all HRs, loaded training provides less than 70% the same O2 uotake than normal cardio options.

In other words, despite marketing, there is no such thing as one form of exercise to rule them all and cover all bases. If you want to be stronger, then lift weights as that's what they're good for. If you want a better heart and ability to use O2 then do normal cardio. Trying to lift weights to get fitter is as ridiculous as thinking you can run to get stronger.

 

[victoryj]

@googs No blood flow because of muscular tension? Source?

 

[googs]

@victoryj Time to get out from the stone ages...

Here is an abstract - https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjphysiol/54/5/54_5_471/_article

There is a book written by Dr Kenneth Jay that goes into this called Cardio Code. Here's the review I wrote nearly 10 years ago about his book.

This is a good summary of a lot of the material in the book and some basics about the mechanics of it all.

 

[victoryj]

@googs Yeah that’s why I’m asking, I’ve never heard of this before.

 

[googs]

@victoryj Most people haven't as it doesn't align with what they hope to be correct.

They hope they don't need to watch what they eat to get in shape - false.

They hope they can just use one tool to get in shape - false.

They hope they can just lift weights and get all the health and fitness benefits from a more varied and logical plan - false.

And the KB world is filled with cultist zealots who believe what the marketing claims say because that would make their life so much easier.

It's so easy to use logic to defeat all the marketing claims made by people. Just ask one question, "If this form of training is so good, where are all the high level athletes using it?" And in the case of most of it there is zero evidence. Meanwhile, you see the top athletes using a concurrent approach and doing strength AND conditioning. But being honest won't sell many books.

 

[victoryj]

@googs What the duck are you talking about? I was asking about the muscle tension claim you made, not marketing bs.

 

[justenough74]

@brownie I currently get my cardio from swing or clean EMOMs, but have not gotten into measuring heart rate. I just do 100 reps in 10 mins, inspired by Mark Wildman’s “running a mile with swings”. When it’s easy, I up the weight. I feel like that’s HIIT training rather than the aforementioned “zone 2”.

I also get “conditioning” mixed in with my strength days. Geoff Neupertesque super sets between upper body and lower body. Again I don’t measure heart rate so I don’t know what’s happening under the hood.

I’ve been curious as well about achieving a stricter steady state cardio session with KBs. Could be just a programming thing.

I do remember coming across a longer swing cardio workout on the Strongfirst site, using what they call A+A training. The gist was, work for 15 secs, which in the case of swings works out to 5 on average. Then rest for 45 secs. Repeat until you fail the “talk test”. The goal is to build up to 40 mins of this without failing the “talk test”. 40 mins of cardio is around what Peter Attia recommends. Haven’t tried this protocol though so can’t give any more info.

I’ve seen an interview with Peter Attia where he argues that zone 2 should be as steady as possible and that an oscillating heart rate, even if in the “zone 2” range will not have the same benefits. Not sure why that is though and what proportion of the “benefits” are lost.

 

[harliee57]

@brownie Absolutely they can, but it doesn't have to be all of one, none of the other. When I first got into KB's spent almost a year of just working with them, but lately rediscovered my rowing machine and how great of a workout it can be. There are a ton of variations you can use with KB's, doing Every minute or the minute and doing complexes can be more like cardio but also strength training. It's a great kind of best of both worlds. Currently though enjoying mixing it with KB's 3 times a week, rowing 2 times. Lots of people on here KB's are the mainly and only form of working out and it is more than enough.

 

[soldierofgod1988]

@brownie I wonder how would you execute zone 2 training using kettlebells? Long farmer walks or swings with 6 kg kettlebells? Weekly pecifically targeted zone 5 training sounds horrible by the way, what is that about? And have you gotten your zones measured in a lab or otherwise? Note that HR zones can vary for different sports/movements/exercises.

 

[victoryj]

@brownie I do not think that KB's are the right tool for Z2, especially when you have a bike erg at your disposal. Z2 is supposed to be even and steady.

 

[dawn16]

@brownie I've just got into this zone 2 training approach and listened to a couple of talks on the subject from Dr Peter Attia and Dr Rhonda Patrick. Fascinating stuff

I also started simple and sinister kettlebell program from Pavel which I think is the same idea... Anti glycolitic training (AGT). 10x10 swings and 10 TGUs 5-6 times a week. Next set doesn't start until you pass the talk test.

My problem seems I can't keep my HR into zone 2 after a set of 10 one hand swings with a 24kg

I'll start my set at about 100-105 HR and it spikes briefly to 145-155.

I'm 50 so max hr using basic formula is 170, which means my zone 2 should be between 119-136

The Maffetone formula puts me at 130 (maybe 135) so pretty close.

I have to wait anywhere between 3-4 minutes to let my HR come down Lowe enough for next set (from 145ish to 105is)

So 100 swings takes me around 40 minutes

My HR falls into zone 1,2, and 3 at almost an even split (a bit less zone 2 actually)

So I guess I'm not getting the full benefits of zone 2 training as it should be "steady state"

I do have a Concept 2 rower so I presume this would be a better tool to use for zone 2 training than kettlebells.

 

[mari79]

@brownie Why not do both? I am currently intense kettlebell sessions of 30 mins 3 times a week followed by 30-45 min of zone 2 walking uphill on a threadmill.

During the first part (KB) my HR is spiking into zone 4 and 5. I rest and do the next KB exercise when my HR has dipped well into zone 2.
Then after those 30 mins of kettlebell I go to the threadmill and adjust the incline (+10%) and pace to stay in zone 2.

I mix in a long run of 90 minutes zone 2 each week also. Just because I love what it does for me mentally.