4 years of hard work

@silsophi Well, what is the ultimate goal? Being attractive to women if you're straight? We know from research that a fit, athletic built is max attractive to women. Most women are not into a tren monster look. Keep that in mind.

Also, 4 years is a while esp in your 20s, but it's a slow process. I've been training super consistently for 6 years, the last 3 of which were pretty dialed in, but it's only in the past 6 mo-1 yr that I finally started feeling like my physique looked the way I wanted (I'm 36 - you can see progress pics in my profile, although i need to update w/ a new post). My body fat is higher, but I get more comments on my appearance than when I'm leaner. I also switched from PL style training to BB style programming with machines and DBs. My physique has improved a lot since then. My arms, upper chest, traps, neck, and forearms are bigger. You could consider something like this if you're not doing this already. Focusing on the "yoke" is a way of making yourself look bigger.

Ultimately, if you feel like shit at a lower body fat percentage, listen to your body and stay a little higher. Not everyone can maintain super low BF. You're rocking the "bear mode" look alex leonidas and jeff nippard talk about in your posted photo. It's not a bad look. You'll look bigger in clothes. That's been my approach, and it's worked for me. I get plenty of attention. Yeah I've got a bit of fat around the middle but still have some ab visibility and i don't have to obsess about my diet.

Bottom line - maybe change up your programming to focus on the muscles that make you look bigger (esp if you've been running a PL focused program), consider embracing the slightly higher BF bear mode physique, and realize that looking huge isn't everything.

But more than anything, stay natty. Drugs ain't worth it. Being healthy and fit is. Fitness is a long game. Keep playing it.
 
@jenfr I think I originally got into lifting due to appearance and self-esteem issues and trying to be attractive and all that sort of stuff.

But now - it has nothing to do with any of that. I'm old enough to not care, plus in a LTR. For me personally it's about general athleticism, respect for myself, following through with a goal, becoming mentally/physically stronger, accomplishing things fitness-wise. Sort of like leveling up my character in an RPG, except in real life. It also helps to keep the kids away when going out or doing things with friends (I've lived in places where it's not uncommon for teenagers to try to bully older, weaker people). I do think that you are naturally given more respect by people for being fit or muscular, whether people admit it or not. Non-lifters often call lifters "douchebags" but deep down I find it to be a sort of coping mechanism.

I have seen people in my life, coworkers, friends/etc who let themselves go completely by 30. They have done no physical exercise for over a decade. They do not walk or run ever, they don't do anything with their body. They look almost sick all the time and I do not want to spend my upcoming 30s-40s-50s in that state, regardless of what my career will be throughout my life, and I know from personal experience during my 49kg days that it's REALLY easy to fall into that trap in the modern day. We have technology for everything, and if you can make an income via a desk job, you literally don't have to lift a finger for most of your life.

As far as bodyfat goes - for me I feel the strongest at around 20% bf. Still mobile enough to run 5KM at an OK time, still strong enough to lift heavy weights, yet still free enough to eat a lot of good food. That's why I like bulking to 20%+. Only at 25%+ is when I start feeling consequences of that much body fat, impacting mobility and movement and etc, and that is usually when cuts begin. But like I said in the OP, as a natty at 20-25% BF, you will look/feel like you look below average. And honestly during the winter with bulky clothes on, it's difficult to even tell the difference between a 90kg 25% bf vs. a 90kg 40% bf person, yet they are so very different.

Steroids are literally the cure to everything in this regard. Low body fat, insane strength, insane muscle growth. But of course - at what cost? Is it worth it? It's really hard to calculate. Even as nattys almost all of us admire the OGs of bodybuilding like Arnold or Ronnie. Yet they, and the sport, would've never came to be without those chemicals and hormones because we are mere humans and not gorillas regardless of our "genetic potential."

It can also feel very disheartening to see someone surpass your years or decades of hard work within a couple months of PEDs. I know know, "don't compare yourself to others" - but we're people and thats what we do.
 
@silsophi Yeah man, I totally agree about the respect thing. People are way more deferential and respectful to me as a muscular man than they ever were when i was really thin. It's just the way it is. I admit, I also like looking imposing/intimidating.

I also agree about shit catching up to you in your 30s. By that point if you're not exercising regularly, a sedentary lifestyle and poor diet start having a noticeable impact.

Those are solid reasons to keep lifting.

Where I would disagree with you is about the 20% BF making you look way below average. Now, I'll grant you that it depends on how you carry it since fat distribution is a bit different for everyone. But 20% is still pretty lean. It's not fitness model lean, but compared to the average dude or even average gym goer, it's lean. And honestly, if you feel the best at that level of BF, might as well rock it.

I'll admit that I've sometimes felt a similar thing where I think that I need to become leaner (I'm probably close to 20%, maybe like 17 or 18%). I don't love having even a small amount of belly fat. But then I think more about where I am relative to almost everyone that isn't an instagram model, and I also think about how I like looking big in a t shirt, and then I don't care about being leaner.
 
@silsophi
  • It's very difficult to keep steroid-induced gains when you go off cycle
  • The vast majority of people will not turn into the Tren Twins on "just one cycle." That takes a hyper-responder and even then they're usually lying when they make that claim.
  • Some people do fine on small doses of steroids over a short term, but many will suffer horrific side effects. Not worth it.
As a natural lifter, you kind of have to live with being weak when you want to get lean. It's just the way it is. That said, unless your goal is to make money selling supps on IG or something, there's really no need to be so lean it fucks up your strength the vast majority of the time. 15-20% bf is not a bad range for natty lifters to stay in even if they're hypertrophy focused because natties generally look better bigger and somewhat "full" than super lean. With enough muscle you can achieve a pretty aesthetic look even at middling bodyfat ranges.

It's just the unfortunate truth that we can't all be Coach Butler. In time and with quality training you can probably get pretty close.
 
@silsophi Yeah man idk, You definitely don't look untrained necessarily, but I understand where you are coming from. If you truly have your macros on point, it could just boil down to genetics.
 
@silsophi The curse of the natty. I just posted about having the same problem. Mark bell just recently posted the same thing and it didn’t change for him until he started gear.

As a natty you can be big or lean , not both
 
@silsophi The harsh reality for anyone who wants to get bigger is that you will never be as big as you want/your pump.

That said, some things that have helped me stick to being natty after 16+ years of lifting:
  • If you've done a show, you'll realize that size is vastly overrated when you factor in things like posing and conditioning. It sounds weird, but realizing how important posing is to showcasing one's physique has helped me get around feeling insecure around guys who might be bigger than me but would probably never dare stand on stage wearing nothing but a thong in front of a bunch of strangers
  • Spending enough time actually studying the consequences of taking gear has convinced me that the negative side effects drastically outweigh the upside. Not to mention the financial costs.
  • Taking a step back and thinking about the fact that 99.9% of the general population will never do what we do nor look the way we look - even if some of them do take steroids or sarms. Nothing will contribute to your growth more than simply being consistent over the long haul.
You're right, though - bodybuilding is a slow and painful process. And what you're experiencing now is part of that pain.

Personally, I take pride in knowing that the vast majority of people would rather opt for the "shortcut" than exercise patience. Something about being the exception and doing what virtually no one else is willing to do makes me feel some kinda special.

If it helps, just keep in mind it took John Meadows 30 friggin' years to get his pro card. What separates you from the new kid on the juice is you're here to stay, while he's just doing it for the 'gram (or whatever fapbook kids are using these days).

Keep at it, OP. The longer you stick with this, the more of an exception you'll be.
 
@silsophi Man homie keep going. Don't let what you see in the mirror mean everything to you mentally. Don't join the dark side bro, gains that come quick is like money that comes quick, you lose it quick too.
 
@silsophi 4 years is nothing. You look just right, focus on improving your performance by keeping à log of your workout. If you are constantly able to perform more rep, adding weight and adjusting volume and intensity to your need you the body will follow. Even without huge sacrifice.
 
@silsophi Welcome to All Natural Bodybuilding.

Now you're starting to see why so many dudes take steroids. They get tired of waiting...

I've been training naturally off and on for years. I'm 62 now and I can guarantee you that I look better than 99% of the other dudes my age. I'm sure I feel better too, plus even though I eat a healthy whole food diet with limited to no processed foods, I can pretty much eat anything I want and never get above 15% bodyfat.

I know it's difficult, but think of it this way...

You are trying to carve Michelangelo's David out of marble with a dental instrument. It's going to take some time and dedication, but the results will come and you will still be able to look at yourself in the mirror and know that you never sold out.
 
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