As an experienced lifter are we shortchanging progress at all by doing a little cut to a 'beach leanness' each year?

[dawn16]

@lusciouslyn What fat boys are you referring to that make good coin?

 

[isabella63]

@dawn16 Piano removalists? Nfi either bro

 

[jamierite74]

@elxdalto Haha, always chasing that improvement. Maybe not fat but definitely soft/blurred to the point Im hesitsting to take my shirt off in front of people. Itd be very difficult to throw in the towel and stay lean knowing I wont put any more muscle on my frame. Many believe to truly level up a late intermediate/advanced natural physique you need to get heavy and stay there for a while. How long? Im not quite sure. But most years I try to find that middle ground getting the best of both worlds. ~8 month bulk, 3.5 month cut. Rinse and repeat. Rate of weight gain is small-ish but more importantly measurable. Ive done the 1lb/month bulks but theres too much room for error for many reasons. Anyways, im lean for the summer parties, vacations, etc. But then its always on the back of my mind if Im shortchanging myself and never allowing myself to reach that next level, or if its just nature of the beast.

 

[losteve19]

@jamierite74 Go watch some videos on bulking and cutting from renaissance periodization. It will clear all this up for you.

 

[needheaven]

@jamierite74 I think a longer cut only works best if you had it down to an exact science, problem is in practice there is some error and you do lose some muscle. With a shorter cut there is less time spend doing something wrong because in reality it won't be perfect. The first weight you lose is easiest so the longer the diet goes on the more chance of muscle you lose. Also need some type of feedback cycle, if you bulk and cut for 1 year, you can learn from mistakes and change. If you do 2-3 years its a longer feedback loop, you won't get it right the first time, so you make some changes, then your looking at 5 years passing by the time you started and seeing how you did after being new to all this + 1 time making some misc changes you don't know how they will turn out.

As a natural and probably just hobbyist to this sport we oven look to see what the more advanced people do, we won't get that far but might as well copy what we can from them. Many compete at least once a year, look at any of the top pros, when is the last time they bulked for 2-3 years? Anyone who knows what they are doing always seem to be a few months away from contest shape but never the good part of a year away.

 

[johnlxyz]

@needheaven I think the argument for feedback is a very good point actually. I do short cycles and I'm constantly tweaking my deficit and surplus. Very easy to especially overdo the surplus if you lack experience.

 

[leena2016]

@jamierite74 The answer to this is to essentially spend about 10.5 months of the year in a very slight surplus followed by a 7ish week cut losing 2lb a week. Excess calories above a very small surplus will do almost nothing for you as an advanced lifter.

 

[jamierite74]

@leena2016 Yes over the years Ive used varying rates of weight gain. In theory as an experienced lifter your rate of potential muscle gain is so freakin tiny that it seems most logical to gain BW at a snails pace (

 

[leena2016]

@jamierite74

Another perspective Ive seen more than once is that in the advanced levels is so damn hard to add muscle that you need to put your body in the absolute best possible position to put on muscle, which will be a moderate surplus

Here's what I think: This is true, from a certain point of view, but not quite the point of view that you're practicing presently. Gaining muscle as an advanced lifter is hard, so we should be in a surplus, but this surplus should be in proportion to the amount of muscle we can theoretically gain. If you can gain 3lb of muscle in a year, & you gain 9lb of weight, (excluding extra water retention), I would say that person is absolutely being productive from a mass gain standpoint even though it's less than a pound a month. It seems very slow, but they've gained 2lb of fat to every 1lb of muscle, & once you factor that, I would say gaining faster than that would be too fast. 4 weeks in a decent deficit & the fat is gone & they can return to slowly building new tissue.

But it's all dependent on if you can measure the weight gain. If you can't really measure it, then maybe go slightly higher than the theoretical ideal for the sake of surety.

 

[jamierite74]

@leena2016 Id say thats a fair assessment. The only problem is Id almost call it impossible to gain 1lb (or less) per month on average. Sure I believe Ive done it before gaining 10-12lbs/year but how do I know that rate was consistent throughout. What if I had a month of 0 gain. No matter how meticulous you are with macros and weigh ins theres just too much room for error in various ways. Between labels being inaccurate, varying levels of daily activity, eating food you didnt weigh/make yourself, water weight flucuations making the waters muddy, etc. That 100 calorie surplus bc easily be a totally different number and you could be shooting yourself in the foot. Because of this fact Ill give myself an extra cushion of maybe 2lbs gained per month even though I know a high proportion of this will be fat

 

[dawn16]

@jamierite74 What a retarded thread seriously

 

[excelsior9000]

@jamierite74 You have goals other than looking good?

 

[jamierite74]

@excelsior9000 Nah, thats it. I dont compete but I still want to maximize the amount of muscle I can add to my frame. Basically the long term goal is to just keep getting my lean (8-9%) bodyweight higher. If that means I have spend time bulking up then Im gonna take that route.

 

[persevering]

@jamierite74 Yes. The only time I truly put on size that changed my overall physique in a meaningful way were both during 2 year bulk periods. 9 months just simply isnt enough time for your body to "own" the new weight. I'm 6'3, went from 155 to 210 in about 12 years. Almost all of it was during 2, 2 year time spans of true bulking. My personal rule is if I hit 16% bodyfat I start cutting.

Cutting is easy.

 

[jamierite74]

@persevering Yes this is exactly what Im referring to. Many support this idea. That you need to get relatively heavy and stay up there for a long period of time (in this case 2yrs) to truly level up your physique as a natural. Ive heard that phrase before, "owning the weight". And if you cut down each year (9 month bulks) youre shooting yourself in the foot and youll never reach that next level. So youve noticed this to be true? Have you done the 9 month one many times too? The majority of my ~14 years training Ive done the 8-9 month slower bulk and 3 month cut. And honestly for many of these later years I look pretty much the same. Same body comp at the same weight. It makes me wonder if this is a big reason for it or if it isnt and its just nature of the beast.

 

[persevering]

@jamierite74 Yea man, I experienced the same kind of thing. Essentially sitting in perpetual no mans land gaining a couple pounds a year max when it's all said and done for years until I got really serious about putting on size and had a willingness to be soft for an extended period. My personal rule is I test my bodyfat often with calipers and if see it hit 16% or it's increasing too rapidly I reduce calories or make my diet cleaner while still being in a slight surplus.

It's worth it. It feels great being big everyone respects you more and abs are incredibly overrated even during the summer.

Edit : Also I see no reason for a 10 month cut. With proper dieting fat literally melts off. I personally use Tim Ferris's 4 hour body cutting protocol.

 

[mojoboy31]

@persevering cutting is only easy for those who cant eat

 

[yearningforspirit]

@jamierite74 There aren't any studies that show the bulk/cutting cycle does anything if you are natural. It works for juice heads because they sync it with their steroid cycles.

The only viable reason to do some bulking/cutting as a natural would be if you are projecting you'll be doing more high value lifting sessions targeted for hypertrophy where food would serve as a catalyst to help you recover without gaining too much fat with that increased intake.

Cutting for the beach will probably lose you some "potential gains" just because of the fact that you'll have less strength to maintain your lifts which will affect muscle mass. Aside from that they are very minor.

EDIT: See the fake natties downvote. Feel free to send me a link to a STUDY that proves me wrong. Not article on some shady website, but an actual study.

 

[dawn16]

@yearningforspirit So, what do you propose a natural lifter do?

Also, do you have any evidence for your position of the nature you’re asking for from others?

Also, if you’re concerned about downvotes (you have maybe two), making aggressive comments about why you’re getting downvoted is probably only going to get you downvoted more.

 

[yearningforspirit]

@dawn16

Also, if you’re concerned about downvotes (you have maybe two), making aggressive comments about why you’re getting downvoted is probably only going to get you downvoted more.

If I'm getting downvoted going against some popular narrative that means I still have free will left on a website known to just downvote any dissenting opinions.

There is no evidence for the popular bulking broscience everyone keeps parroting. It's on them to prove it's worth being the most popular advice.