As an experienced lifter are we shortchanging progress at all by doing a little cut to a 'beach leanness' each year?

[dawn16]

@yearningforspirit If you see downvotes an indicia of your free will, then you shouldn’t be salty about it.

So, you have no proof for your position either, is what you’re saying?

Also, you didn’t say what you think someone should do instead.

 

[yearningforspirit]

@dawn16

If you see downvotes an indicia of your free will, then you shouldn’t be salty about it.

Overly general statement. "If this thing means good then you should be good little boy, accept everyone's criticism without question and get drowned out by the majority narrative." Me stating my opinion on something is not saltiness. It's me showing that I don't give a damn what people think even if it gives me more backlash. It's free will despite pain. If I want to lose weight I will stop eating even if I get hungry or even if the people around me think I'm being silly for trying so hard to be "fit."

You see I am very used to going against the grain. People don't like it because they don't like people who think for themselves and go against the group. It's a different world that you won't understand.

So, you have no proof for your position either, is what you’re saying?

No it means that I am stating my opinion based on my anecdotal results. The popular notion of bulking is popular based on people's anecdotal results. My anecdotal results is better than someone else's anecdotal results. The only thing that will tip the balance is some form of aggregate statistics that show statistically significantly observation on the latter since broscience is worthless. I'm bigger and leaner than most naturals who tend to be fat and overly parrot bulking. There are also a lot of fake naturals who like to give their advice without giving context on what they take. Public opinion on this is basically worthless so only a study would suffice.

Also, you didn’t say what you think someone should do instead.

Couldn't care less. I only know what I'll do. For example, if you continue to ask loaded questions feigned as objective questions I'll know your opinion is just as worthless.

 

[dawn16]

@yearningforspirit I am not sure why you think my questions are loaded. I’m just seeking clarification of your position. Ideally, these threads are for us all to learn and to provide helpful feedback to OP. Those things can’t happen if your contribution only boils down to “what other people says work, doesn’t.” If you want to speak to what you’ve done and works for you, and why you disagree with what others are saying, I think many of use would be willing to at least consider your position in good faith. But if all you say is “this doesn’t work and anyone who says it does is a fat fake natty,” then there’s no basis for learning or productive engagement.

I don’t disagree that a study would be helpful, I just question how you’d design and implement it, given that bulking and cutting is a long term (ie years on end) strategy. In the meantime, it seems all we have is anecdata and the opinions of knowledgeable folks.

Also, affirmatively stating that you don’t give a damn what people think is, by nature, giving a damn what people think.

 

[yearningforspirit]

@dawn16

I am not sure why you think my questions are loaded.

"So, you have no proof for your position either, is what you’re saying?" That's not an objective question.

But if all you say is “this doesn’t work and anyone who says it does is a fat fake natty,” then there’s no basis for learning or productive engagement.

That's because the people who parrot the bulking cycle are mostly people who are either just trying to get big, trying to justify eating a lot of food or they get unnaturally great results from ingesting food via any kind of PED. They won't admit to this lol. It's like trying to call out a trump supporter that they are supporting trump because they are lowkey racist, trying to call out healthy at every size movement for just wanting to justify overeating, or trying to call out Tate fanboys that Tate is just using them for money. These sort of things are embedded in people's psyche and they will try to maintain narrative so they feel safe. There won't be proof for either because it's a pseudo-social phenomena. The whole bulking thing is some form of the healthy at every-size movement that made it's way into the fitness scene somehow. Anyone who criticizes it will immediately get shot down regardless of what you show.

given that bulking and cutting is a long term (ie years on end) strategy

That's not bulking at that point. That's another issue. People have different definitions of bulking. Holding a bigger size gradually is not bulking. When you talk about bulking, people just think about eating as much as they want.

Also, affirmatively stating that you don’t give a damn what people think is, by nature, giving a damn what people think.

I really don't. If they you think something then think it. If you make it known to me via downvote then I'll respond. That's just the cost of taking action, you will get a response. Everything you do has a price. If you just think it and don't bother me with it then I really don't care. Same as how I conduct myself in person. If you have a problem with me then face me and be prepared for the response. Most people are just brave enough to do the least amount of response with the least amount of risk.

 

[dawn16]

@yearningforspirit You dislike Trump and Tate supporters, so we agree on that.

I also suspect your views on bulking aren’t that contradictory. Seems you’re saying that a lot of people use the notion of bulking to just eat like shit without discipline and get fat. I agree and think it’s stupid.

 

[yearningforspirit]

@dawn16

Seems you’re saying that a lot of people use the notion of bulking to just eat like shit without discipline and get fat

I guess that's a less wordy and less offensive way of saying it lol.

 

[dawn16]

@yearningforspirit Lol. Thanks.

 

[jamierite74]

@yearningforspirit I like the quote "success leaves clues". Anecdotally speaking many of the natural guys who are adding the most LBM to their frame over the years support the idea of an extended bulk period. Many of them believe its key to reach the highest levels of advancement with a natural physique. Ive done both ways for years (dedicated bulk/cut versus extremely slow 'gaintaining') and from what Ive seen/heard over the years I believe dedicated bulking is the way to go. Slow but measurable. Too slow could risk wheel spinning. As a natural lifter added progress is SO HARD to come by that I believe you have to put yourself in the best possible position to add muscle and thats a calorie surplus. Of course too fast and youll gain a high proportion of fat bc your muscle potential is low.

 

[angelica009]

@jamierite74 exactly, all big naturals i know promote slow bulking

 

[yearningforspirit]

@jamierite74 The slow bulk you are referencing about is just gradually body weight increase. They aren't "bulking." They are simply holding a body weight and then moving up step by step. That is not what the bulking that most people think about when they talk about bulking. You are comparing technical bulking versus colloquial bulking. Not the same.

Many of them believe its key to reach the highest levels of advancement with a natural physique.

You can't prove this either because there are a lot of fake natties who think TRT is natural.

 

[pinetowntree]

@jamierite74 I think that you’re better off spending spending most of the year in an anabolic state where you’re gaining weight week to week.

However, I also think that if you’re bulking for 4 months, 5 months, you may have become less sensitive to the anabolic muscle building signals of weight gain and you might as well do a cut/mini-cut at that point so you can buy yourself more room to bulk without becoming fat.

 

[jamierite74]

@pinetowntree Thats good to hear and I hope it to be true that one isnt shortchanging themselves over time by doing it this way. I typically will bulk for 8-9 months and cut for 3. Basically trying to maximize my progress while still looking good/lean in the warmer months when Im at parties, on vaca, etc. But its always on the back of my mind of Im not leveling up my physique bc of this method versus the extended bulk

 

[pinetowntree]

@jamierite74 Yeah, and just for health and performance, you don’t want to be fat. That seems like a reasonable approach, I wouldn’t worry that you’re not bulking enough.

 

[copticlife112]

@jamierite74 I personally like a slower cut where I just keep volume to about a third of what I was doing to gain. This way my body says 'hey we still need that' and I can still recover between lifts. People on drugs can afford faster cuts because the drugs give them that advantage.

Since gaining muscle that's already been built back is quicker than gaining brand new muscle even if you come back to a weight you want and you are weaker than the last time... you will be better off on your next bulk.

I'm not too experienced FYI but have hit intermediate lift levels on a couple lifts.

 

[bluemoonwailer]

@jamierite74 Yes, and no. I can only speak from personal experience. Ive been lifting for 13 years started at 16 -17. With around 5-6 years of professional bodybuilding experience. Now our experience can be very different as I cut down to sub 5% bf each year for comp season.

Now could I possibly be leaving gains on the table? Yes, but not so much that I think it could make a huge difference at least naturally. Im not enhhanced so it could be different.

Just thinking about it kind of tells the story. The longer you lift heavy, strength train and maintain a caloric surplus the longer you can theoretically get stronger. Now if you take a chunk of that time and dedicate it to something else like cutting then youre going to miss out on the strength you could have made during that same time.

Now is that theoretical strength something to worry about. Im thinking not really, because the deloads you would have taken, injury prevention and all that probably would be like 5-10lbs of strength. Especially at the advanced levels of experience.

All this goes out the window if youre enhanced. Ive seen people forever bulk and never be over 8% bf.

 

[jamierite74]

@bluemoonwailer Do you think its just a time thing? Theoretically a longer bulk requires a longer cut (assuming you stay in a surplus throughout and dont maintain a higher BW), which means total time bulking/cutting should be similar in both scenarios. But many believe you have to get relatively heavy and stay relatively heavy for years if you truly want to level your physique up (naturally). Fully owning that heavier BW so to speak. And cutting each year or 'cashing in' is just shooting yourself in the foot and youll never reach that next level. Idk how I feel about it

 

[ravensfan]

@jamierite74 I prefer the fluffy live year round.

 

[jamierite74]

@ravensfan Lol Ill be honest it does depend on the person. Some look much better in a bulked state, some look much better in a lean state, and of course you have plenty inbetween. Im definitely one of the people that look much better leaner. I noticed with myself and others have told me this too

 

[trumpeter2]

@jamierite74 Matthias Steiner (German olympia lifter) was 150 kg. Later lost that weight and except for chest looked amazing.

At that weight you surely can hold onto more muscle and then afterwards you probably can regain a fraction of it.

But he doesn't look that amazing especially if you consider that he was the strongest man alive at a certain point, smashed world records that have been redracted for PED use and beat competitors who used them too. Maybe he should have lifted more for size. Maybe his weight wasn't that advantageous.

 

[joaa]

@jamierite74 My goals physique is probably not too far off from my genetic limit. I may never reach it but 29 and I wanna try.

I'm not that fussed about being lean until I get to that size. So I cut maybe once every year and a half when the body fat gets too high