Do you guys have opinions on Wendler's "North of the V**" concept?

[cz1611]

I originally wanted to post this on r/fitness but can't, so I'm slightly modifying for purposes of this subreddit, because I was really struck by it.

I Just finished Wendler's 5/3/1. I take as a matter of course that lifting is male dominated and a lot of the language reflects this, but I was truthfully pretty miffed that a whole chapter was devoted to this concept. For those who haven't read, Wendler and his friend have a credo to stay North of the Vag (the "holiest of holes.") I wanted didn't want to assume bad faith but it really is just about not being a pussy.

Despite the dismissive blog post, I don't see how someone can conflate a woman's body with weakness and not be misogynistic (I understand there are nuances with respect to trans women and gender identity, but I'm not assuming so much good faith as to impose a more progressive view on Wendler's justification than I think is likely.)

Anyway, I wanted to level set: Is this how you think guys view women and lifting? If there's an opportunity in a conversation to speak up or confront this kind of thinking, do you?

It's a serious inquiry because I generally find this most fitness-related subreddits respectful and inclusive without being suffocating or overwhelming, and I would personally be really disappointed if the majority of men in the gym adopted a similar credo, or that Wendler was providing a gateway to that framing.

 

[ipurr2]

@cz1611 I'm not bothered by it. I appreciate someone speaking plainly to me and I don't need pc language couching to accept good advice or direction.

I also haven't really experienced any dismissal because I'm female. I have felt bad when comparing my lifts to men's lifts but I can also recognize that's silly

 

[1012david1012]

@cz1611 "Don't be a pussy" as a phrase, to me, is a colloquialism that has kind of evolved past being misogynistic (despite firm roots in misogyny, of course). It's not something that i would really ever say, and you bet i'd have a talk with my husband if i heard him say that; but if i heard a random stranger talking to his/her buddy in passing i would not automatically assume that they are sexist. "North of the vag" sounds sexist because it lacks that cultural context. In summary: hard pass, brotum.

 

[dominatio]

@cz1611 I read the book and rolled my eyes at the “north of vag” mentality. He appears to be a smart guy when it comes to weight lifting but not very advanced, socially or emotionally.

The way I see it:

If you break down my gym into 100 people there are 5 women who come in, work hard, keep their head down and are strong as fuck (mentally and/or physically). Another 4 women who come in and fuck around and use it for a dating pool. 7-8 guys who come in, work hard, and keep their head down. And 1-2 douche canoes who have the same mentality as Wendler. The rest are just normal people who come in, do their thing and don’t think much about it one way or another.

 

[gilly48]

@cz1611 I started lifting with 5x5 and used the squat pad at first. My husband called the squat pad a "tampon" because it's for pussies. I squat 275lbs and get bruising on my back, but I've never been able to use it again because of it. I think I fe ccel like I have to be as

 

[tartamudo]

@cz1611

lifting is male dominated and a lot of the language reflects this

Not justifying it, but this isn't weight lifting language, this is sports/playground/locker room language. Whining or crying or being weak is "being a pussy". It has been since humankind has language. Hell, Shakespeare made pussy jokes in his plays.

It's also marketing, weight lifting is about being stronger than the next guy. Weight lifting coaching is about making people think you can get them there better than the next guy. Some adopt hyper masculine behaviors to do so. But, i have no doubt that they'd respect a woman with big lifts.... and the women would probably stand taller knowing they could outlift some of the men. "Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man? "

As to language... How about the phrase "Don't be a dick?". Usually meaning "annoying".

Wendler is an ass for his word choice (and probably a lot more).

 

[robrog8999]

@cz1611 I have been hooked on 5/3/1 for about a year now. I like his programming and coaching styles. 5/3/1 Forever has so much great content. Needless to say, calling his statements sometimes misogynistic is an understatement. Do people need to harden up and cut the bullshit out of their training? Yes. Does he need to phrase it in this way? No. As much as I wish he would express this sentiment differently, I accept his freedom of speech and look to him for training knowledge only. He definitely does not directly associate women with weakness (e.g. talks about his wife lifting and conditioning often and thinks she's a badass in general), but it's still problematic.

 

[ronit]

@cz1611 Yeah, that's gonna be a hard no for me. I've tried the whole "not being so by these sentiments offended" thing and it's become very clear to me, that a good amount of people call out people for "being offended at everything" because they are offensive and don't want to be more considerate. There's a myriad of terms to use that don't marginalize a whole group of people to bring a point across. Equivalating vaginas with weakness and inferiority ain't it and in the year 2019 it's not too much to ask to change your ways.

Antagonizing women to stay cool with the bros isn't cute. Being "non-PC" isn't revolutionary. Being derogative towards a group of people as a sales tactic doesn't age well, usually. There's really no good excuse to use this term in this day and age, especially considering how none of these men would even last trough a month/full cycle with a vag, let's be real.

 

[msoule4]

@cz1611 It's just a guy who is OK at lifting being a tool. Y'all bringing gender studies critiques at this shit lol

 

[axo]

@cz1611 Personally, my experience with men within the powerlifting community has been pretty positive. I go to a gym with a fairly decent amount of male and female powerlifters. There's a mutual respect from seeing how hard we all train and having similar goals to lift fucking heavy.

Powerlifting has a wild mix of people. My impression of the old guard is overwhelmingly old conservative white dudes. In my little curated internet bubble, a lot of the powerlifters I follow on social media skew overwhelmingly toward women that are generally pretty inclusive and progressive.

Generally, I've only ever gotten condescending remarks from generic gym bro's. Who can't fathom that my goals arent aesthetic.

 

[chandrika]

@cz1611 I definitely don't think that's a common thought amongst male lifters. I think that there's a percentage of gym rats that are bros like that because there's a percentage of the greater male population that's like that. But personally, I would be really shocked to hear that kind of thing at my gym. It could be that I live in a more progressive city, but I have only ever observed respect. I would expect more dedicated male lifters to see women in the gym regularly, so why would they care? I bet most dudes haven't really thought about it.

In terms of confronting that sort of thing, I would honestly ignore it. If he doesn't respect women before I start talking to him, I probably won't change his mind. That's not worth it--I'd just get mad, and I'd rather channel my aggression into ball slams or something.

 

[aspiringchaplain]

@cz1611 Gross.

"It's not a misogynistic term"

"It means don't be a pussy"

This guy's entire website is a joke, right? Right??

"Because a mentally and physically dangerous man will always be needed."

oh my god he is wearing a shirt that says "eat, sleep, mate, defend" on his insta

Well that's enough internet for today

 

[christinspired]

@aspiringchaplain He sounds unhinged.

 

[vannahlovesjesus]

@cz1611 I wrote an email to him (which he never responded to) about the part where he wrote "he would clean out his ears with a gun". My dad committed suicide not long ago and I thought him writing that in a fitness book was so ridiculous.

His sexist writing was icing on the cake and I do regret spending my money on it because the program can be found online for free.

 

[kadmiel]

@vannahlovesjesus I'm really sorry for your loss.

 

[marietherese]

@cz1611 Ive found most men im around (my husband, his friends and men at the gym) have never said anything negative about my lifting. However it's like every fucking time I go into a supplement store I get some fucking douchebag trying to 'educate' me on which supplements I should buy, and they always assume I'm new to this because in clothes you cannot really tell I'm a weightlifter.

I think there is a real problem with men in the fitness industry in general.

 

[jcc42]

@marietherese That’s how it is in the music industry too. I’ve been a musician for 12 years and also got a degree in audio engineering. I’m a woman. Every time my boyfriend and I walk into any music shop, every dude who works there asks my boyfriend what he plays and what he’s looking for, and then look confused when I tell them that I’m actually there for something.

The kicker is that my boyfriend is musically & technically challenged (it’s just not interesting to him) that he wouldn’t even be able to pick up something from the music store like guitar strings or some cables without me tagging along.

It’s so frustrating and it’s honestly put me off participating in the industry period. Now I just do music by myself in my own house, and order everything online.

 

[jesmith0401]

@jcc42 I stopped going to my local record shop because any time I would walk in there with my boyfriend, the owner would want to know what he’s listening to and be all about sharing music recs and helping to find cool records. Never once asked me anything, and I eventually found out why.

We were checking out one day and the owner made a comment about how it’s so nice of my boyfriend to bring me in to show me what good music looks like since “girls music isn’t vinyl worthy.” I was the one that introduced my boyfriend to the shop in the first place. Okaaaay dude. Never returned to that place.

 

[jcc42]

@jesmith0401 Eww. That’s so stupid. That makes me think of a dude who refused to sell me a snare drum at a flea market (I thought I’d be cool to collect random ass instruments at the time), because he didn’t believe girls could play instruments.

 

[alvena]

@cz1611 Yeah, I think it fucking sucks, and it definitely put me off 5/3/1. Also seconding the Bret Contreras stuff other commenters are pointing out. I refused to even look at strong curves for a long time because I can't stand that creep. I don't think these are representative of the "majority" of men in fitness, but that doesn't mean their behavior shouldn't be called out. Plus I always vote with my dollars - when I was doing 5/3/1, I thought about buying one of Wendler's books. Then I read a version I found somewhere online with the north of vag stuff and reconsidered.