Double progression vs set reps

[backnforth]

I know it’s recommended to apply double progression and add reps to each set until a top rep range is hit but can it work for example sticking with 3 sets of 8 for 215 if it’s bench then master that weight for that volume then in a few months go up to 220 for 3 x 8?

 

[kvolm]

@backnforth What do you mean “master that weight at that volume”? You should be performing most, if not all sets with pretty tight execution throughout the set.

What I foresee happening here, is that the 3x8 at a given weight will become progressively easier and each set would get progressively further from failure, until it’s essentially a warm up set that produces no hypertrophic stimulus.

I’m not sure why you would want to leave progressively more stimulus on the table like this.

 

[phoplet]

@kvolm I have a coworker with really bad OCD, she can only do sets of 12. I wonfer if this is the same situation?

 

[asperd]

@backnforth Rep ranges over-simplify the process (and potentially kill gains in the process btw). For eg. If you are doing 15lb DB lateral raises, a promotion to 20lbs is +33.33% the weight. The influencer who wrote the program I was following last summer/fall said 3x12-16. And he said promote when you hit 16 on the first two sets and 12 on the third set. But if you can do 16 reps on the first two sets of 15s and 12 on the last, its very unlikely you can nail 12+ reps on every set of 20s. A 16RM is about 65% (not sure of the exact figure) of a 1RM. A 12RM is about 71.4286% of a 1RM. So if your 16RM is 15 lbs, your 12RM is likely to be 16.5 lbs. But you don't have a 16.5 lb dumbbell. You have a 20lb dumbbell (unless you have an adjustable dumbbell with tiny micro plates). You're unlikely to do 12 reps of 20 lbs. In fact a 16RM of 15 lbs is equivalent to a 6RM of 20 lbs. So why not go for higher reps of 15s and disregard the rep range specified by the programmer? It's unlikely too that 6 reps of 20lb DB lateral raise is going to be very productive in my opinion. Especially when there is a high likelihood of doing cheat reps on this movement. Though you're welcome to try.

Now what about higher number lifts like SBD? Then its the opposite issue. It's actually way easier to hit 8 reps of 220 Bench next time if you can do 8 reps of 215 Bench than it is to do 9 reps of 215 Bench next time. So if your program says 8-12 for your 215 lb movement and the next rung over is 220 lbs, why wouldn't you just add weight to the bar instead of waiting until you hit 12 reps to promote?

 

[fateeadams]

@asperd That's one way to go about it, but for smaller movements like lateral raises I just open up the rep range more. I may do a range of 15-30 if I'm doing sets of 3, for example.

 

[elenamaria_9]

@fateeadams Or intensity techniques, as another option. Yours is fine too.

 

[fateeadams]

@elenamaria_9 Agreed. You really have to open up your options on those smaller movements

 

[elenamaria_9]

@fateeadams And slow expectations on rates of gain. Like a rep every 2weeks during beginner/intermediate stage should be considered good progress

 

[spreading_the_gospel]

@backnforth When you read something like this you know it was a treasure found in the sewers of youtube fitness probably peddled by a 40 year old with leather skin on steroids.

 

[buna]

@backnforth I've seen this approach work. The bottom line is still poundage progression in medium to high rep ranges with good and consistent form. If any method allows for that, it's good.

I generally prefer taking sets all the way (or close), and that's usually how I program training for clients and it's a very popular approach because you're getting the most out of every set and you're accumulating a lot of effective reps. I personally think that all makes sense however I've seen other approaches work, ones like what you're describing here because they just rack up a lot of work with heavy weight.

Call it tonnage or whatever, that term has fallen out of vogue recently but whatever you call it. This is the accumulation of a lot of reps with a challenging weight. Sure the first couple of sets are easier, but as long as you're doing enough of them you're going to get a reasonably good growth stimulus. A lot of Powerlifters train this way and grow just fine by racking up a lot of sets at a given weight with none (or few) of those sets reaching failure. We forget if we step out of our bodybuilding world for a second, a lot of what we know to be true is due to the current echo chamber.

There is also an argument to be made for alternating periods of higher intensity and lower volume, with higher volumes across the year for the best long term growth and longevity.

Typically speaking you'll need more of these sets to equal the stimulus of less sets taken all the way. From what I've seen the need to maximise set intensity or set volume really comes into play when a lifter is a little further along. At that point you just need more stimulus, whether that's from really maximising set intensity or upping the volume a little.

It's not how I would do things, but if you like this approach and you're making progress then crack on.

 

[itsjoseph]

@backnforth You need a “trigger” to add load. That’s why double progression works. Unless you use RPE to trigger the progression from the 3x8 example… seems rly tricky though.

 

[allyssandra]

@backnforth Adding more sets or reps/sets or total reps would be the most direct way of progressing while using the same weight.

If you are doing touch and go, or really bouncing the weight, you can progress by adding pauses to some reps, or slowing the tempo down. Lots of things can make a rep harder so you can make progress, but it gets really hard to track exactly what a set means and what two similar sets means. That doesn’t make it bad though, just hard to make decisions about what exact progress is being made.

 

[krispablos]

@backnforth Recommended by who? I prefer to add weight until I hit my bottom threshold for reps. There’s no rules to this, do whatever you want.

 

[nelsontai]

@backnforth master that weight for that volume.. what does it mean? it sounds like you are keeping it at that weight for a long time(few months)..i think it would be better to shock your muscles every couple of weeks.. Maybe try like, if your working set is 215 and usually do 12 reps with 10th rep is where the struggle starts, do your second set of that exercise as a heavy set where 6th rep is struggle and finish at 8 reps like maybe a 230 once you finish that drop the weight 50% to 115 and beat the shit out of it for maybe 13-16reps, then 3rd and 4th set proceed back to normal working set 215 for 12 reps. . if your feel you can manage it after 2-4 weeks double your heavy+drop set making it 2nd set and 3rd set then 4th set normal working set.. this is all in a month of course you need to proigress and increase the weight..

 

[indybap]

@backnforth Technically, double progression just means you pick 2 variables, and one must reach a threshold before the other can progress.

Instead of this being reps and weight, you could pick a tightish rep range, say 10-12 and keep that static to allow for reasonable day to day fluctuations and then have your 2 variables be RPE and weight.

So when you can hit 3 (or 2 or 4, up to you) sets with a given weight, in your chosen SMALL rep range and have those sets all be RPE 8 or lower, then you add weight.

 

[preciousheart]

@backnforth I believe that you might be afraid of adding more weight to your bench press. In your situation, you can just start doing weighted dips/weighted push-ups and you can prioritize the OHP. Weighted Dips are awesome and plus, they can work the upper part of the chest if you lean forward a little bit more.

 

[jpeltier17]

@backnforth There's not really a hard line for right and wrong with this stuff as long as you're growing muscle as fast as you like.

Personally I've never preferred keeping track of anything. I just use a pretty heavy weight and move it till I hit failure, and bounce around a few rep ranges. As long as you hit failure or close to it with a decent weight none of the rest matters more than that. Unless you're training for strength of course.