Kettlebells and longevity

[dawn16]

@topekole I don't know this to the level of detail that you do but I've had this feeling for awhile and so I tend to keep a distance from it all. Lots of the programming - like the ones you listed - suggests too much volume IMO - which is why I don't tend to follow SF programming. Have tried a number of them and ended up with slight overuse injuries, only to ditch the program immediately - thankfully overcoming my ego at this age. I program for myself now mostly guided by what feels right.

I have a background in advertising, marketing and communication which may seem irrelevant at first but most of the KB organizations use pretty common tactics associated with low quality, scammy, snake oil type businesses. This and the high turnover of "names" is a dead giveaway.

 

[topekole]

@dawn16 Thank you for your response. I think what has happened in the kettlebell community, specifically StrongFirst, is that no one has told Pavel that he is wrong or misguided. His word is taken like the word of God. Their favorite quote if you second guess or question their methods is : “I am not saying you are wrong. I just know I am right.” The marketing is really sleazy. The secrets of the soviet supermen blah blah blah.

 

[dawn16]

@topekole

is that no one has told Pavel that he is wrong or misguided.

I don't care what the organization is, any place run by someone who claims infallibility is deserving of scrutiny that much more. People who are truly committed to the goal of high achievement will have no trouble putting aside their own ego in the face of compelling evidence. After all, it's not about their ego, it's about getting better. SF marketing is more than sleazy, from where I sit it looks like it actually traffics in fascist aesthetics and misogynistic tropes. I think they have some good info to offer, and also some terrible info to offer.

 

[hoanphamkhong1]

@topekole Thanks, this is something that has raised a few alarms in my own research of Pavel, his methods, and the people around him. There seems to be a huge cult of personality built around him, as well as others like "Dr." Mark Cheng, the latter of which I've heard people call "a legend" and "their hero". Cheng doesn't even publish what kind of "Dr." he is on his website.

 

[topekole]

@hoanphamkhong1 Mark Cheng is literally a doctor of Chinese medicine and acupuncture. I kid you not. He charges like 1700 dollars for an hour skype session. LOL just because he came up with the four knots and has a good kallosthenos get up he's their hero. Another thing to ask yourself is "Who has Pavel personally trained to a high level?" Other than nameless/redacted military personnel, who we have no proof of? How about the fact that his Master of Sports in Russia is unverified? The best thing I've gained from all of this stuff is the discovery of Dan John. A man who has a track record of achievement and is available to the public for q&a.

 

[hoanphamkhong1]

@topekole Yeah, that is what I figured. Funnily enough back in LA when I was desperate for some relief to a spine-related injury I was having I ended up going to see him for therapy (this was before I knew much about KB, FMS, etc.)

The way he spoke to me about BJJ techniques (I had trained a lot of BJJ at that time) being applied and how it connected to my injury etc. was in a manner that screamed, "I know enough to sound like I know what I'm talking about to someone who doesn't know anything about the subject".

Dan John is awesome, though, I agree.

 

[topekole]

@juancarlos Something else I wanted to post is that I really do enjoy the stuff you post. This isn't a bash against this community or the kettlebell itself. I just want to share what I've learned about this topic.

 

[juancarlos]

@topekole Thanks, and I did not take it as such a bash.

It is interesting information, but also raises questions about specifics and context. The devil is often in the details.

 

[jasonsmith1]

@juancarlos Great post!! Thank you for this.

For me, A+A, Q&D and S&S plus aerobic running is all what‘s needed for fitness and longevity.
But as written, simple is not sexy to most people! (For me it is)

 

[glory7]

@jasonsmith1 What’s A+A? Apologies if that’s daft / I’ve missed something obvious.

 

[hoanphamkhong1]

@glory7 Alactic + Aerobic. Google strongfirst A+A. Training principle that many Strongfirst programs are built around.

 

[glory7]

@hoanphamkhong1 Thank you!

 

[in_crisis]

@juancarlos Very cool.

I actually held to that philosophy, but my program didn't vary much due to my exercise selection. That led me to be a bit locked in to a narrow program. My own fault, really. I pretty much stuck to snatches, clean and jerk, clean and push press, OHP, floor press, swings, and front squats. Mostly double handed versions more recently. I didn't do much core work, high pulls, rows, or other "back" or posterior chain exercises because I thought most KB ballistic drills would take care of it. I ended up with some injuries due to compensations and some bad form habits. Had to rethink my approach.

I switched to a more broadly focused program (AX1 by Jeff Cavaliere, also awesome) as I realized I had some imbalances in my development and wanted a more structured program.

I think flows have their benefits but only if you really do them well. Like martial arts forms with weapons. However, I agree that most people don't do them well. Steve Cotter is excellent. Scott Sonnon is the king of flow exercises overall, IMHO. Eero Westerberg from VAHVA fitness is interesting when it comes to KBs, as are some of the rotational drills from Onnit.

I don't think Pavel Tsatsouline does many of those at all for some reason.

Chandler Marchman also has some decent free KB stuff on YT and paid programs focusing on super short intense routines or finishers.

I will still quite often swap KBs for DBs in AX1 if a given exercise will allow it. I also have clubbells and feel the same way.

Having the additional types of weights also broadens your training possibilities.

I do think that rotational drills with KBs and CBs are interesting ways to mix things up.

However, the "core" of any good program are the basic drills that address what the original post describes. The other drills, lifts, and flows will round you out, address weak links, broaden your abilities and confidencen, build body awareness, hopefully prevent injuries and imbalances, will boost performance in the basic lifts and drills. Well done!

 

[juancarlos]

@in_crisis

AX1 by Jeff Cavaliere

I don't think I've ever heard that. What is it like?

Rotational drills can be a bit heavy on the spine, but the big issue is that you will only find out a lot later. Stu McGill has talked about those in several places.

 

[in_crisis]

@juancarlos He's a PT and strength coach who used to be the head PT and head assistant strength coach for the NY Mets in the late 2000's. Has a YouTube channel with close to 9 million followers with hundreds of free videos with great high value content including strength, conditioning, mobility, flexibility, nutrition, injury prevention and recovery, and other great topics. AX1 is his basic paid program. He teaches use of barbells, dumbells, some kettlebells, bodyweight, exercise tubing, cable machines, resistance bands and various other methods.

It's a tough, good program that whips you into shape and rounds you out. Just started it recently. Google Athlean-X for more info.

 

[juancarlos]

@in_crisis Ah, Athlean, yes, I am familiar with that. And I knew his name but just didn't connect.

 

[tmanocd]

@juancarlos For. Longevity with kb look into girevoy sport
There are guys in their 50s still competing at high level
It's focus is endurance, flexibility then strength
With proper programming you will be lifting for a long time as it encompass everything you need
Strength training, cardio training, flexibility training, mindfulness

Training without ever competing will keep you fit for a long time

 

[lass31]

@juancarlos No need to overcomplicate it. Just do the competition lifts on a regular basis. You don't even need to compete to reap the benefits of it.

 

[juancarlos]

@lass31 Movement patterns are important to maintain. For example, the ability to squat, and snatch, or clean&jerk, are not a squat.

 

[comics1996]

@juancarlos Cool, I'll check it out. I've been listening to a lot of Mind Pump lately and I'm always looking for a good podcast to listen to.