Lat involvement in a vertical 'suitcase' lift (boring Q for anatomy nerds)

[lostandfoundproverbs31]

Imagine I stand upright with a dumbbell in a hammer grip. I lift the dumbbell vertically while keeping my elbow tucked--NOT winged out as if I'm doing a typical upright row for side delts.

So my upper arm, beginning parallel with my torso, is extending back behind the line of my torso. This action resembles the end of the concentric part of a row.

I think most people would agree that the lats are still active at that part of a normal row? That they don't cut out as the upper arm goes behind the line of the torso?

Do you think the direction of force (vertical rather than horizontal) changes much for lat involvement compared with a horizontal row?

I'm asking all this to help make sense of my experiences of deadlifts performed with a hammer grip. They seem to me to be a decent lat exercise despite having a tiny ROM for lats. Many people like deadlifts for back, yet I've never, ever seen anyone recommend the kind of vertical 'suitcase lift' I describe here for lats.

EDIT: someone linked this illustration: https://exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidLateral/DBRaises

Another EDIT: To save further repetition, an animation showing the relevant lat action:

 

[vloggle]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 There is no way this activates your lats. You might be flexing them a bit to tighten up your core and such sure, but this is not a lat excercise.

This is a great tutorial for beginners to have an idea of what lats do and how to actuvate them

 

[lostandfoundproverbs31]

@vloggle

EDIT: P.S. I'm not a beginner and have had nooo problem activating my lats or understanding the basics of their function & common exercises, so this isn't the issue here.

 

[sbrodhagen]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 The lat attaches to the upper arm. When you're doing a vertical row, you're actually lengthening the lat so other than as a stabilizer it's not an active mover.

During a bunch of rows that actually work the lat at a bunch of different angles, they shorten during the concentric and lengthen during the eccentric.

This exercise is analogous to the upright row which is traps and delts as the prime mover.

 

[lostandfoundproverbs31]

@sbrodhagen

 

[sbrodhagen]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 doing an upright row like the guy with your dumbells is doing your humerus bone is undergoing primarily abduction which lengthens the lats otherwise dumbell and cable lateral raises would hit the lats

There is a touch of humeral extension too. But when you're starting with your arms at your side and going into extension as the dumbbells raise this also lengthens the lat.

Extension pretty much only shortens the lat when you know, your arm starts in front of you.

Not to say the traps, rhomboids or other back muscles aren't hit.

This is a low row where the lats are active movers.

Edit: saw your comment about lats bringing the arm behind the body. Think of the lat in it's shortest position. The humerus will not be significantly behind the body.

 

[lostandfoundproverbs31]

@sbrodhagen So Anatomy Lab's wrong?

 

[sbrodhagen]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 I saw that video. There's only so much extension you can have before you start lengthening the lat again. Try contracting one of your lats as hard as possible with one of your arms. You're humorous maybe at most might go five or 10° behind your back. I just tried it and I would say it's definitely less than 5° behind my back.

The few degrees of extension you'd might get in a horizontal row or a pull-up is probably not so bad, but after a certain point you're not contracting the lats anymore and other muscles gain significant leverage.

Think of an exercise like a dip where there is significant humoral extension where the pecs stretch under load.

I'd argue in an upright row the amount of abduction that's occurring way outpaces the amount of extension you're getting if any at all so at no point do the lats shorten during the concentric which would make them a prime movie. It does look like a great shoulder and trap exercise though.

Again I showed a video of a machine low row which would hit the lats but that primarily has to do with your humuerus starting out in front of your body to bring the lats under an appreciable amount of active range of motion.

 

[mstreet]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 Lol who the fuck cares about this. If you want lat ‘involvement’ do a proper lat biased row not a fucking carry. This is bodybuilding brah

 

[lostandfoundproverbs31]

@mstreet [facepalm]

I have already-alluded-to reasons for asking. I have been doing other 'proper' lat exercises for 100 years. Thank you for your contribution. /s

 

[mstreet]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 You defo weigh 120lbs

 

[lostandfoundproverbs31]

@mstreet Nope... But you are definitely a rude meathead.

 

[allyssandra]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 I think the lats would be an antagonistic muscle group here. It's like the triceps during bicep curls. The lats are lengthening on the contraction and shortening on the eccentric, which is the opposite of what it normally would be if the exercise worked that muscle.

 

[lostandfoundproverbs31]

@allyssandra Doesn't look it it?

 

[allyssandra]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 Contracting a muscle means to bring the point of insertion closer to the point of origin.

The lat inserts on the upper arm and has origins on the spine. Bringing your upper arm closer to your spine contracts the lat. Moving the upper arm away from the spine lengthens the lat.

The exrx link has the upper arm moving away from the spine, so not contracting.

The youtube link doesn't look anything like the exrx link.

 

[lostandfoundproverbs31]

@allyssandra It's the same exact movement of the upper arm. I'm not a beginner at this stuff; I understand the things you're explaining, but I don't think you're right about the last sentence in your second paragraph there. The animation shows that the lat can bring the upper arm behind the torso, not just to the level of the spine. Again, like I originally said, think of the end rage of the concentric motion in a row. The upper arm goes behind the torso, past the level of the spine. I've never, ever heard anyone claim that the lats turn off at that portion of a row. As far as what the upper arm is doing, it's the exact same motion in a horizontal row and in the exercise in the EXRX link.

 

[berylpricee]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 Just because lat has function of shoulder extension doesnt mean it has that function at every position.

Muscles just create tension tension between their insertion or origin.

Your lats use the ribcage as anatomical pulley when the arm is in front of you, and they pull the humerus back. But once the insertion point at the humerus gets in line with your torso, the muscles line of pull dramatically changes and it really just becomes shoulder adductor (pulling the arm towards your spine).

Remember that lat insertion point is high up in the humerus so the elbow can go behind the body! Its really the insertion point thats important.

Also there is different divisions of the lat. Some fibers attach to the pelvis and they really just pull the humerus downwards towards ur hip. And some fibers attach to the thoracic spine and they pull the humerus much further behind the body compared to the lower fibers.

 

[berylpricee]

@lostandfoundproverbs31 That exercise is terrible for the lats. The lower lats would be antagonist in that motion, the upper lat might contribute a little bit at the start of the movement but they would lose their leverage very quickly once the humerus gets into higher degrees of elevation. And it doesnt even come close to lengthening any division of the lat, and that seems to be pretty important for growth.