Most Trainees Lift Too Far Away From Failure (discussion)

[gworden]

@holyrood It just seems like people are so dogmatic about it. There was no inquiry into how intense I train, just a blanket assumption that I must be sandbagging.

 

[jluponeage]

@gworden Training age also makes a difference too. The longer you train for, the heavier the loads you need to use to induce hypertrophy. Heavier loads inherently cause more fatigue, even if rep ranges/intensity is matched. People who have trained for years and are experienced will most likely struggle to take their sets with high absolute loads to failure every time.

Another huge factor is caloric intake. If you’re on the bulk, you can take more sets to failure and be able to recover properly before your next set.

 

[aquafrost]

@cattat As a beginner who’s made virtually no progress in the last 5 years, I will try this method to determine how much weight I should use.

Thanks

 

[violetsmith]

@aquafrost Could try upping the volume also or food if you are very skinny. You won't make good progress if you aren'g gaining weight over time or increase the work that you do (work=total sets x weight)

 

[dolphinsdream]

@brock The most important takeaway is near the bottom (and subject to much discussion on this subreddit):

Although I’ve consistently argued that you don’t need to train to

failure to maximize hypertrophy, findings like those observed in the

present meta-analysis (and plenty of practical experience) still lead me

to believe that training to failure may be more advisable than

the scientific literature would suggest. In a vacuum, it looks like a

fool’s bargain: training to failure probably doesn’t lead to more growth

on a per-set basis than stopping 2-3 reps shy of failure, but it causes

more fatigue, and comes with a higher recovery burden. But, training

to failure does have one major thing going for it: training to

failure ensures you are putting enough effort into each set to attain a

robust hypertrophy stimulus.

Yes, you technically don't need to train to failure. But almost everyone shockingly underestimates where failure means.

So just train to failure, and you'll never be wrong.

 

[brock]

@dolphinsdream The problem is that failure in a lab setting, where multiple lab assistants are encouraging you to lift just one more rep is quite different from "failure" in your mind when you're working out alone at the gym and don't have other people pushing or even watching you.

That's why I think a focus on tracking and progressing week-to-week is much more important than volitional failure.

 

[tay796]

@brock Exactly, if you increase the reps week to week you will reach that true failure eventually

 

[justyna]

@tay796 This right here is the approach I follow. Aim for 3-4 RIR in the first week and slowly add a rep and or load each week until I cannot match the previous week’s performance. It forces me to hit failure in a controlled way.

And if I underestimate my RIR? If I go 7-9 weeks without hitting failure and just keep adding weight and reps? I will still hit failure and then will be able to plan my weights and sets and reps for the next meso using the data I’ve gathered.

 

[mk009]

@dolphinsdream "just train to failure and you'll never be wrong" is also exactly what you would do if you were trying to injure yourself. If you lapse in form on the deadlift, squat, bench, OHP you could slip a disc, blow out your pec, or have other serious injuries.

Lifting as heavy as you can manage without leaving a chance for failure is practical lifting advice for people who want to stay in shape and avoid injury. It isn't my job to compete at this sport, I'm just going to continue to lift because it makes me feel better and look better with my shirt off.

 

[dolphinsdream]

@mk009 Common misconception. Training to failure does NOT increase injury risk. It has absolutely no effect on injury prevalence.

https://baye.com/poor-form-injuries/

 

[laura02375]

@mk009 Training to failure =/= one rep maxing weights you can’t lift

 

[bulldogbrian]

@brock It's notoriously hard to judge rate of perceived exertion when you're lifting in higher rep ranges. I know for myself I can't do sets of 20 leg extensions without buckling under the lactic acid before muscular failure. Lowering rep ranges to 8-12 makes it a lot easier to hit 1-2 RIR (or failure).

I think there are many reasons why we see people in the gym never progressing. In my experience (at least for men) it's most often about reaching a plateau because of bad technique/ego lifting, and not because people aren't training hard enough.

 

[xxusaf1rexx]

@bulldogbrian I truly agree. I feel like far too many people are using more weight than they really need, and it results in poor technique or at least sub optimal technique to assist with long-term progression. I learned that firsthand after a few injuries and the consequential rehab. You can do a LOT with objectively very little with efficient technique.

 

[dawn16]

@brock

What is your guys' take on this?

My take is that this isn't relevant to 90% of the people who browse lifting subreddits.

Many people lift far too light, do 15 reps and never look particularly strained.

Another big portion lifts heavy af, but only does 1/3 of the ROM. They squat above parallel and bench press 15cm above their chest.

None of those groups will be found here on Reddit. They'll work out for a few months and then give up because they obviously won't make progress.

 

[tay796]

@dawn16 Seriously, these lifting subs are for hardcore lifters, most people here know what failure with good form is, it's not that difficult guys, just lift until you can't physically finish the rep without cheating

And I'm gonna add that this study pick the lift where universally most people don't go to failure on because of the dangers of getting stuck on it. I almost never go to true failure on bench press, always 3 to 1 reps in reserve, but according to science thats whats optimal anyway I guess, so I'm good.

 

[dawn16]

@brock I think a lot of it is bad habits held onto from the novice training phase. Novices are told to focus on strength primarily for the first few months to “build a solid strength base”. Most strength programs I’ve ran training to failure is discouraged because of the fatigue it builds and has carryover to the next training session. I remember reading somewhere that even Reg Parks discouraged training to failure because of the mental impact it has. This is true for strength training but unproductive for hypertrophy. Yet these novices (myself included) carry that mentality with them into their intermediate phase and are afraid to push themselves on safer, less fatiguing movements.

I also think a lot of it has to do with being told as a natty, training to failure is only productive for guys on gear and nattys need to get stronger to get bigger. Therefore, to get stronger you train for strength and are afraid to train to failure. This is just my personal experience though.

 

[mhadden]

@brock Absolutely agree.

Most at the gym do not even take isolations close or to failure.

Isolations are much more effective near failure, are far less taxing on the CNS and require much less recovery, work capacity. People rest too long between and put too little effort into isolations.

An isolation with more than 5 reps to spare does very little for hypertrophy and most people are looking to gain muscle…:

Compounds, squats, deads, bench, OHP are a different beast.

I do not always take compounds to failure to manage fatigue in pursuit of volume and reduce injury risk. That said, I do not like leaving more than 5 reps in the tank.

 

[crimsonking1]

@brock Barring newbies and people who lift for enjoyment rather than specific strength/size goals, I think this statement is a bit overused lately.

Are there some people who do have specific strength/size goals who doubt themselves and don’t lift as heavy as they’re capable of or give up way sooner, just as a lift starts to become challenging? Of course. Is it the vast majority? No.

I’d say the majority of serious people about weightlifting have nutrition issues more than training issues, such as not eating enough, not getting enough protein, or just eating junk and putting on far more fat than muscle.

Those who are serious about their training generally feel that their sets are challenging. Is it possible they had some partials left or even 2-3 reps left in the tank on some sets? Or they could’ve bumped the weight up 5 pounds? Sure.

Does that mean they will have zero gains, zero progress, and completely wasted time in their day? No.

 

[joyousperson]

@brock I think this is the cause of those "I've been training for 3 years and I see no growth" comments.

 

[robndor]

@brock This is why I stopped doing 5x10. I found that the weight required to make the last set until failure was my about 20 rep max.