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Most Trainees Lift Too Far Away From Failure (discussion)
- Thread starter brock
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- natural bodybuilding
allyssandra
New member
@brock Is the ability to accurately pick a 10 rep max the same as not working hard enough in the gym?
I’ll interpret the result a bit different. I’d say programming straight sets are not that great because of how difficult it is to figure out the right weight. Something like double progression fixes the problem over time, but I’d add that things like amraps and pyramiding weight and most other intensifiers are under valued because of that difficulty.
I’ll interpret the result a bit different. I’d say programming straight sets are not that great because of how difficult it is to figure out the right weight. Something like double progression fixes the problem over time, but I’d add that things like amraps and pyramiding weight and most other intensifiers are under valued because of that difficulty.
princessstefania
New member
@allyssandra
I sort of agree with the point you're making - that just because they might not be able to guess the right weight for something they might not regularly do (only 10 reps), they're still putting in effort and working hard.
But on the other hand, the study also says that bench is their primary exercise, and they train it first, and often. So you'd kind of expect them to know roughly how much weight they can lift? And yet on average they overshot by 6, and over 25% of them overshot by 9 reps, which is, no matter how you slice it, a lot.
Like you say, it doesn't mean they aren't putting in work, but unless that work is close to failure, it's not going to mean nearly as much.
And on the positive side, it's not that hard to figure out how much you can lift. You can have fun (at least it's fun for me!) trying out different weights at different rep ranges, and going to failure. It only takes a few minutes to find your limit.
Is the ability to accurately pick a 10 rep max the same as not working hard enough in the gym?
I sort of agree with the point you're making - that just because they might not be able to guess the right weight for something they might not regularly do (only 10 reps), they're still putting in effort and working hard.
But on the other hand, the study also says that bench is their primary exercise, and they train it first, and often. So you'd kind of expect them to know roughly how much weight they can lift? And yet on average they overshot by 6, and over 25% of them overshot by 9 reps, which is, no matter how you slice it, a lot.
Like you say, it doesn't mean they aren't putting in work, but unless that work is close to failure, it's not going to mean nearly as much.
And on the positive side, it's not that hard to figure out how much you can lift. You can have fun (at least it's fun for me!) trying out different weights at different rep ranges, and going to failure. It only takes a few minutes to find your limit.
@allyssandra On the bench press though? Most trainees go to the gym and the bench is the first thing they do. They should be able to more-or-less estimate their 10rm.
@brock I try explaining this to all my friends that go to the gym and are always telling me that they see no progress. Most of them have their nutrition and recovery in working order, but barely anyone ever seems to actually train very hard.
The truth is that, while science and some optimization help, lifting is inherently a very primal and simple activity, and far too many people overanalyze and take the fun out of it, always trying to work smarter rather than harder. I think you should definitely be smart about how you lift, especially when it comes to form / technique, but you're not going anywhere in the gym if you don't get in there and bust your ass.
The truth is that, while science and some optimization help, lifting is inherently a very primal and simple activity, and far too many people overanalyze and take the fun out of it, always trying to work smarter rather than harder. I think you should definitely be smart about how you lift, especially when it comes to form / technique, but you're not going anywhere in the gym if you don't get in there and bust your ass.
lovethechrist
New member
@brock I see one or the other end of the spectrum a lot; people either training far short of failure (either due to lack of mind muscle connection, mental fortitude, energy, due to fear, or a poorly developed development of RPE), or training too close to failure. A lot of the time both get no results. The former camp never developed the Pathways and mentality and thought process or the muscle control and technique, whereas the latter can't drop their ego.
Then there's the small percentage that nail their rep numbers, and get big - kid at my gym been here a few years and he's jacked,
Then there's the small percentage that nail their rep numbers, and get big - kid at my gym been here a few years and he's jacked,
@lovethechrist Training to failure regularly isn’t about ego. I personally just like taking all sets to RPE 9.5-10 and have experienced better results than when I trained mostly around RPE 9. In fact I don’t think there’s anything to suggest this isn’t the best way to train IF you have the time in the gym to support longer rests and have your split setup to support the longer recovery required.
@brock imo, discussions about failure/effort/rpe/rir are too overrated. have a good night sleep, rest, be in a surplus every hour for the 48 pre-training, and then go train. compare that to doing just an hour of cardio pre-workout - your results in the gym going by 0 RIR for everything are going to be much different. failure/effort is just an ego trip - we all like to think we train hard and everyone else doesn't
add weight to the bar, implement some form of objective progressive overload, and track results. RPE/RIR/effort/etc. doesn't matter. if you start with 135lbs for 10 and in a month you do 145lbs for 10 - your muscles have been exposed to more stimulus and will need to adapt. doesn't matter if the 135lbs for 10 was 1RIR and 145lbs for 10 was all out failure - just as likely 135lbs for 10 could be failure on a bad strength day and 145lbs for 10 could be a breeze if you have outside the gym variables covered. if your training program forces you to add stimulus, effort/failure/etc. will take care of themselves. adding more stimulus - you're going to need to put in more effort and focus on recovery and fatigue management or you're not going to be able to manage that stimulus. trying to do it the other way around is where it becomes problematic. if you think you have to go to failure every session for 20 sets a session 6 days a week and never add weight to the bar because you're too fatigued to be able to perform better - i promise you, you can look hardcore in the gym but you're not gonna grow.
add weight to the bar, implement some form of objective progressive overload, and track results. RPE/RIR/effort/etc. doesn't matter. if you start with 135lbs for 10 and in a month you do 145lbs for 10 - your muscles have been exposed to more stimulus and will need to adapt. doesn't matter if the 135lbs for 10 was 1RIR and 145lbs for 10 was all out failure - just as likely 135lbs for 10 could be failure on a bad strength day and 145lbs for 10 could be a breeze if you have outside the gym variables covered. if your training program forces you to add stimulus, effort/failure/etc. will take care of themselves. adding more stimulus - you're going to need to put in more effort and focus on recovery and fatigue management or you're not going to be able to manage that stimulus. trying to do it the other way around is where it becomes problematic. if you think you have to go to failure every session for 20 sets a session 6 days a week and never add weight to the bar because you're too fatigued to be able to perform better - i promise you, you can look hardcore in the gym but you're not gonna grow.
haydenreed
New member
@fleurieu Muscular failure is when you can’t complete the concentric despite the greatest effort. Like in squat you can’t get up and you have to dump the bar on the safeties, or on bench someone has to the the bar off you. Technical failure is when you have significant form breakdown. Volitional failure is when you just give up and decide the set is over, ether because of pain, cardiovascular fatigue, etc.
@brock As a personal trainer I've found that especially most beginner lifters do not get even close to failure.
That's why I like a slightly more linear progression for the first year or so of a new beginner client. It forces you to do a little extra weight or a little extra reps every week and I promise for the first year or so.. you will almost always be able to go up.
That's why I like a slightly more linear progression for the first year or so of a new beginner client. It forces you to do a little extra weight or a little extra reps every week and I promise for the first year or so.. you will almost always be able to go up.
@brock I was lifting with a co-worker of mine, he’s a body builder and I’m in good shape, we push our limits. Fuck I’m almost passing out and shaking by my 4th sets no matter which workout I’m doing lol.
One day he mentioned something he noticed through training people and it was that “some people just do not have that dog in them to push themselves”.
And that’s true as hell.
One day he mentioned something he noticed through training people and it was that “some people just do not have that dog in them to push themselves”.
And that’s true as hell.
@brock I don’t lift til failure because I am lazy and usually imaging what I am going to go home and cook for dinner. But I know that since I’ve gone to the gym 5 days a week consistently for the the last decade- knowing I am not going to put myself through a Biggest Loser style workout -I will be always be back at the gym.
@brock Too far away from failure for what exactly? To minimize injury risk? To maximize hypertrophy? For general physical health? To maximize enjoyment? Seems weird to only look at one of the many reasons trained individuals lift and ignore all others, and likely to scew your results towards a certain conclusion.
imnotjokingwellnotmostly
New member
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