@tetelestei Can you explain how that’s a false dichotomy? Because the same exact thing happened with the older pre-2017 RR when the more current RR took its place
New Years 2023 Announcement: BWF Primer Follow-along Event + BWSF Routine Soft-Launch!
- Thread starter dontdosadness
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tetelestei
New member
catholics7777
New member
@dontdosadness Amazing! As someone that got introduced to fitness with the RR in 2017, so happy to see it evolve.
And I agree with all the updates! Great research! Congrats and good training to all new bwf's
And I agree with all the updates! Great research! Congrats and good training to all new bwf's
dontdosadness
New member
@catholics7777 Glad to have a vote of approval from a long time member! 
unikitty999
New member
@dontdosadness Thank you very much! Just what I needed. I am older and experienced with the RR, I know how to warm up. A great overall fitness routine!
Do you recommend the exercises be done individually, like all the pike pushups first, then on to to the next. or does it matter if it’s done as a superset?
Do you recommend the exercises be done individually, like all the pike pushups first, then on to to the next. or does it matter if it’s done as a superset?
dontdosadness
New member
@unikitty999 I personally recommend straight sets rather than pairing for the following reasons outlined in this comment:
Having said that, if you're an RR veteran and you find comfort or enjoyment in the habit of pairing exercises, or if they help you to save time, then by all means!
Having said that, if you're an RR veteran and you find comfort or enjoyment in the habit of pairing exercises, or if they help you to save time, then by all means!
kellyomara
New member
@dontdosadness Appreciate the hard work, been following the primer for the last several months and looking forward to starting the next routine (was reading through the RR when BWSF appeared). Couple things:
- I couldn't find an explanation for the Tempo (eg 22X0) notation, not in the BWSF page nor the Primer, and it was touched upon in the RR I think (but still briefly). As a all-in-one resource I think it would be a good addition. Speaking of the Primer, the hyperlink in the current BSFW wiki page is broken/inaccessible (it links to https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/edit/routines/bwf-primer/)
- The Primer (and RR to some extend) had some really neat general tips/lists about proper form for each exercise type, I see the BWSF is missing some of that (talking about the "Progression List" pages, not the "Exercise Tutorials", although the transition to Horizontal Rows is a bit confusing, the form looks different compared to the Inclined rows) and looks to only include videos (which, by the way, are linked as playlists and will automatically advance to the next video instead of repeating the same one, not sure if that was intended)
- The main thing keeping me from starting the BWFS is that last 5%, namely the missing videos/content. I know they are googleable, but the Primer was cohesive, and having it all in one place, made by the same experienced person, is motivating and easy to follow. The alternative is coming upon 10 different people showing different ways of doing the same exercise, some of them surely wrong. Will all the progressions be eventually covered in the tutorial pages?
dontdosadness
New member
@kellyomara Hey GothicFighter! Thanks for the feedback.
Having an explanation of tempo is an excellent idea, I think I had meant to put a paragraph in about it a while back but the ADHD do be doing its thing. It'll go on the top of the list for written content additions. And thanks for pointing out the link issue! I'll fix that right away
RE: the lacking videos and form cues,
this is the part where the program is still very much a WIP, and was the main reason I had put off its release for so long. In the end, the release in its current form is a bit of a compromise on my perfectionism for the sake of not delaying it basically until I've graduted from my masters degree.
Having said that, I do recognise that the lack of having full sets of videos with detailed form cues is a big dampener on the quality of it as a resource overall. It's something I will continue to work on over time as and when I have time, absolutely. The ideal end state is every progression listed has a video by me with detailed form cues, but that's quite the undertaking so it will take a while!
One way to think about it is: consider the program to be in a sort of an early-access or open beta, where its totally 'playable' in its current form but not as of yet 100% finished. If you'd rather wait til all the videos and etc. are done that's totally understandable
Having an explanation of tempo is an excellent idea, I think I had meant to put a paragraph in about it a while back but the ADHD do be doing its thing. It'll go on the top of the list for written content additions.
And thanks for pointing out the link issue! I'll fix that right awayRE: the lacking videos and form cues,
this is the part where the program is still very much a WIP, and was the main reason I had put off its release for so long. In the end, the release in its current form is a bit of a compromise on my perfectionism for the sake of not delaying it basically until I've graduted from my masters degree.
Having said that, I do recognise that the lack of having full sets of videos with detailed form cues is a big dampener on the quality of it as a resource overall. It's something I will continue to work on over time as and when I have time, absolutely. The ideal end state is every progression listed has a video by me with detailed form cues, but that's quite the undertaking so it will take a while!
One way to think about it is: consider the program to be in a sort of an early-access or open beta, where its totally 'playable' in its current form but not as of yet 100% finished. If you'd rather wait til all the videos and etc. are done that's totally understandable
kellyomara
New member
@dontdosadness Neat, thanks!
@dontdosadness Why not just add pike press and keep dips? It's odd that, on your website, you call dips a foundational body weight workout, the "squat" of the upper body, and then you would remove it. You say that, like squats, people often complain about them because of pain, but that this is because they're doing them incorrectly. But, then you remove them because people feel pain? You might as well remove squats too, then, no?
Also, can you explain how bird dogs give you more "bang for your buck" than other core exercises? Bird dogs are a good warm up, and are often used as such at the beginning of yoga classes, but they are quickly useless as a part of the actual strength training portion of a routine.
Also, can you explain how bird dogs give you more "bang for your buck" than other core exercises? Bird dogs are a good warm up, and are often used as such at the beginning of yoga classes, but they are quickly useless as a part of the actual strength training portion of a routine.
dontdosadness
New member
@tholah1 Comment part 2.
This time I'll address your query about birddogs (and by extension, deadbugs) being a good 'bang for buck'.
tl;dr birddog's are a deep well of utility when it comes to motor control and intermuscular coordination that is transferable to other exercises. It is not really meant to be a pure strength exercise
To use the nomenclature of the RR, both Dead Bugs and Bird dogs, combine their respective anti-extension and anti-flexion with some oblique action, covering anti-rotation. This means 2 instead of 3 exercises. That's one more bang each for one less buck total.
Deadbugs are by all means more challenging than birddogs, and to get up to 20 reps of full deadbug layouts is far more of a steep mountain to climb than to get up to 20 reps of full bird dog extensions if you are simply going through the motions.
The apparent relative ease of the birddog progressions may make it seem like a less useful exercise at face value. however, their utility lies in the number of simultaneous corrective exercise-esque/motor control/postural benefits.
You are correct, however, that they are not long a very effective strength exercise for very long like the deadbug manages to be while also having these benefits.
The following list of benefits is predicated on the fact that the way I teach bird-dogs is much more detailed and complicated than they are likely executed as a warmup for yoga if you are finding them trivial. If you simply go through the motions, enter a quadrupedal position and lift your opposite arm and legs a handful of times, it's easy, essentially just a warm-up, and arguably a waste of time. I'll agree with you there.
If you do them the way I outline in my guide, you are:
If you want an anti-flexion exercise that is much simpler and more purely strength based rather than all this fine stuff (in the same way that those that find deadbugs overwhelming can do planks into eventual ab-wheels), I unfortunately am not aware of a bodyweight only exercise other than like, arch holds and reverse hypers, neither of which are particularly 'strengthy' for much longer than a deadbug. Reverse hypers are quite excellent if you have a good set-up to do them and you have some ankle weights, but that's not a common thing to have a good set-up for at home, so I opted not to include them into a mass-consumption routine that most people will be seeking to complete at home.
If you or anyone reading are aware of an extension/anti-flexion exercise that requires no equipment other than what is listed in the routine's equipment section, and has a high ceiling of strength scalability without weight I would genuinely be interested to hear it, as I would actually like to have a simple no-frills alternative to the birddog for those that find it too simple at a surface level yet too overwhelming in the depth of its utility.
Sorry for the long rant but it's quite hard to easily distill the information into a neat and digestible sound bite in a way that fully explains how dope birddogs are.
This time I'll address your query about birddogs (and by extension, deadbugs) being a good 'bang for buck'.
tl;dr birddog's are a deep well of utility when it comes to motor control and intermuscular coordination that is transferable to other exercises. It is not really meant to be a pure strength exercise
To use the nomenclature of the RR, both Dead Bugs and Bird dogs, combine their respective anti-extension and anti-flexion with some oblique action, covering anti-rotation. This means 2 instead of 3 exercises. That's one more bang each for one less buck total.
Deadbugs are by all means more challenging than birddogs, and to get up to 20 reps of full deadbug layouts is far more of a steep mountain to climb than to get up to 20 reps of full bird dog extensions if you are simply going through the motions.
The apparent relative ease of the birddog progressions may make it seem like a less useful exercise at face value. however, their utility lies in the number of simultaneous corrective exercise-esque/motor control/postural benefits.
You are correct, however, that they are not long a very effective strength exercise for very long like the deadbug manages to be while also having these benefits.
The following list of benefits is predicated on the fact that the way I teach bird-dogs is much more detailed and complicated than they are likely executed as a warmup for yoga if you are finding them trivial. If you simply go through the motions, enter a quadrupedal position and lift your opposite arm and legs a handful of times, it's easy, essentially just a warm-up, and arguably a waste of time. I'll agree with you there.
If you do them the way I outline in my guide, you are:
- Practicing the ribs down/upper thoracic fully extended position that is exceedingly valuable for improving your upper back tightness without losing your brace in pushups, dips, squats, bench press, etc. the list goes on (biggest benefit and highly transferrable to every other exercise in the program, as well as posture). It is essentially the test of your ability to stabilise the lower ribs with the internal obliques rather than the rectus abdominis, as when the rectus abdominis flexes, the whole trunk globally goes with it.
- The arm raises act as an opportunity to weave in some lower trap exercise if you are familiar with the trap-3 raise. That means positional/core training + scapulohumeral rhythm work if you so chose, aiding any overhead mobility work you may be doing, or simply improving your ability to pack tightness into your upper back for a bench press or squat or etc.
- The leg raise acts as an opportunity to do some motor re-patterning/intermuscular coordination work for the posterior chain. Many individuals may find that they struggle to engage their glutes in hip extension and that their hamstrings or lower backs tend to jump in too quick or too much. This CAN play a role in some hip issues and fixing it can make doing hip mobility easier, and it can simply improve conscious control of those muscles which can make the mind muscle connection in other exercises better.
If you want an anti-flexion exercise that is much simpler and more purely strength based rather than all this fine stuff (in the same way that those that find deadbugs overwhelming can do planks into eventual ab-wheels), I unfortunately am not aware of a bodyweight only exercise other than like, arch holds and reverse hypers, neither of which are particularly 'strengthy' for much longer than a deadbug. Reverse hypers are quite excellent if you have a good set-up to do them and you have some ankle weights, but that's not a common thing to have a good set-up for at home, so I opted not to include them into a mass-consumption routine that most people will be seeking to complete at home.
If you or anyone reading are aware of an extension/anti-flexion exercise that requires no equipment other than what is listed in the routine's equipment section, and has a high ceiling of strength scalability without weight I would genuinely be interested to hear it, as I would actually like to have a simple no-frills alternative to the birddog for those that find it too simple at a surface level yet too overwhelming in the depth of its utility.
Sorry for the long rant but it's quite hard to easily distill the information into a neat and digestible sound bite in a way that fully explains how dope birddogs are.
@dontdosadness You seem to be brushing off the attention that serious, long term practitioners of yoga give to form and proper muscle engagement. It's odd that you assume a yogi is just "going through the motions" at the beginning of a class.
We agree that properly done deadbugs can continue to be a good core strength exercise. We will have to disagree on how "dope" birdogs are, even properly done. Personally, I prefer reverse hypers. But, to each their own.
We agree that properly done deadbugs can continue to be a good core strength exercise. We will have to disagree on how "dope" birdogs are, even properly done. Personally, I prefer reverse hypers. But, to each their own.
dontdosadness
New member
@tholah1 You've asked a lot of very excellent questions, but they require a bit of a long answer, so bear with me.
There are two common issues when it comes to dips. Anterior shoulder pain, and costochondral pain. The latter is why they've not been included as standard.
Anterior shoulder pain is what I am referring to in the preamble of my tutorial on dips, and a majority of instances can be resolved with fixing one's form, with a minority being due to deeper issues that require some individual corrective exercise to rectify.
On the other hand, costochondral pain/problems exist on the flip side of that, where most examples do not seem to be form related and that require targeted corrective exercise to mitigate, in my experience both personally and observationally.
This means that some people can do dips with good form, avoiding anterior shoulder pain, but still get chostochondral pain. My current understanding of the most common cause aside from the same form faults that cause anterior shoulder pain (as they CAN co-occur due to those, like shoulder caving), is that it is something to to with a combo thoracic mobility and the muscles that control scapular tilting, which is kind of a tough and complicated area to work on and many people will not want to commit the time and energy, nor may they have the knowledge to work on this, especially when other exercises exist to get the job done perfectly well. I've observed this happen with a high enough frequency that it's called into question not my esteem for dips as an effective exercise, but their suitability as a standard blanket recommendation for a program designed for mass consumption.
For individuals that do not experience any sternum/costochondral issues from dips, or those who do but are willing to put the work in to fix the underlying issues causing the costochondral pain, e.g because they might wish to work on weighted dips in the future, the option to swap pushups out for them after the appropriate level of strength is there.
Hopefully that addresses your question about the relationship with dips and pain, with the tl;dr of:
'Dip pain is not common solely because of bad form'
So that's reason 1 of why they exist less prominantly in the program the way they currently do.
Reason 2 is that 3 push exercises would be too many for a full body beginner training program. This means you can either have:
Option B is the best standard for everyone starting the routine because push-ups have a lower strength requirement
Option C is good for people who have built up their pushing strength a bit and want to focus in on dips, and do not experience issues with dips.
Once an individual graduates to a more advanced program like a dedicated push/pull (rather than the push/pull modification to this routine), one could reasonably do all 3 together on a push day. But that's not appropriate for this programs purpose/demographic.
Hopefully that makes sense. I will address the birddog question in a separate comment to avoid this being too long.
There are two common issues when it comes to dips. Anterior shoulder pain, and costochondral pain. The latter is why they've not been included as standard.
Anterior shoulder pain is what I am referring to in the preamble of my tutorial on dips, and a majority of instances can be resolved with fixing one's form, with a minority being due to deeper issues that require some individual corrective exercise to rectify.
On the other hand, costochondral pain/problems exist on the flip side of that, where most examples do not seem to be form related and that require targeted corrective exercise to mitigate, in my experience both personally and observationally.
This means that some people can do dips with good form, avoiding anterior shoulder pain, but still get chostochondral pain. My current understanding of the most common cause aside from the same form faults that cause anterior shoulder pain (as they CAN co-occur due to those, like shoulder caving), is that it is something to to with a combo thoracic mobility and the muscles that control scapular tilting, which is kind of a tough and complicated area to work on and many people will not want to commit the time and energy, nor may they have the knowledge to work on this, especially when other exercises exist to get the job done perfectly well. I've observed this happen with a high enough frequency that it's called into question not my esteem for dips as an effective exercise, but their suitability as a standard blanket recommendation for a program designed for mass consumption.
For individuals that do not experience any sternum/costochondral issues from dips, or those who do but are willing to put the work in to fix the underlying issues causing the costochondral pain, e.g because they might wish to work on weighted dips in the future, the option to swap pushups out for them after the appropriate level of strength is there.
Hopefully that addresses your question about the relationship with dips and pain, with the tl;dr of:
'Dip pain is not common solely because of bad form'
So that's reason 1 of why they exist less prominantly in the program the way they currently do.
Reason 2 is that 3 push exercises would be too many for a full body beginner training program. This means you can either have:
- Dips and Push-ups (Two exercises that work basically the same muscles in slightly different planes, akin to bench press and decline bench press.)
- Push-ups and Pike/HSPU (Two exercises that serve functionally distinct purposes, akin to bench press and overhead press)
- Pike/HSPU and Dips (Two exercises that serve functionally distinct purposes, like decline bench and overhead press)
Option B is the best standard for everyone starting the routine because push-ups have a lower strength requirement
Option C is good for people who have built up their pushing strength a bit and want to focus in on dips, and do not experience issues with dips.
Once an individual graduates to a more advanced program like a dedicated push/pull (rather than the push/pull modification to this routine), one could reasonably do all 3 together on a push day. But that's not appropriate for this programs purpose/demographic.
Hopefully that makes sense. I will address the birddog question in a separate comment to avoid this being too long.
@dontdosadness IMO, costochondral pain is a sign of underlying muscle imbalance or issues in your mobility/flexibility and it seems you agree. The vast majority of people that suffer are most likely compensating in ways that will affect their other exercises, as well.
Personally, I think mobility should be the core of a fitness routine and not something that should be brushed off as something people won't spend time on. It's absolutely crucial to continuing to workout as we age. I think you do beginners a disservice by avoiding an exercise entirely instead of having them address these crucial mobility issues that will affect them long term in their fitness journey. You can hide the issue for a time, but it will come back to bite them at some point.
Personally, I think mobility should be the core of a fitness routine and not something that should be brushed off as something people won't spend time on. It's absolutely crucial to continuing to workout as we age. I think you do beginners a disservice by avoiding an exercise entirely instead of having them address these crucial mobility issues that will affect them long term in their fitness journey. You can hide the issue for a time, but it will come back to bite them at some point.
@lewis5398 Assuming correct form, if you never feel pain from working out, you aren't doing it correctly. That's the point of progressive overload. You aren't supposed to feel comfortable.
@lewis5398 The pain you guys are describing is due to a lack of stretching and mobility. You should fix those issues instead of avoiding it.
thevisionary
New member
@thevisionary Google costochondral pain, my man. Look up the treatment for it.