New Years 2023 Announcement: BWF Primer Follow-along Event + BWSF Routine Soft-Launch!

dontdosadness

New member

tl;dr - The BWSF Routine is here! This will eventually replace the RR as the sub's main routine once all the exercise progression videos are filled out. Also we're doing another 14 day Primer event starting on New Year's Day 2023!​


Pre-amble, Context, Blabbering:​


Hi folks! And happy holidays to you all!

Nick-E here.

Long time no speak! Life has been real busy and time has flown! It has been a very unfortunate reality that the development of the sub resources, and in particular, the routine overhaul plan I had laid out just prior to the launch of the BWF Primer routine (first routine of those planned) at the start of 2021 has been on a long hiatus (until now! hehe).

This is because I started an accelerated masters degree program (in other words, living hell) that has been taking up exactly 103% of my time since mid-late 2021.

The big tragedy is as far as the Bodyweight Strength Foundation (BWSF) Routine (the next step from the BWF Primer that will eventually act as replacement of the RR) goes, I had nearly finished it by the time I started the degree, and it has been sitting in that state of near completion for about a year and a half now.

Thankfully the RR remained a decent next-step for all the BWF Primer graduates in the meantime, but since I started this degree I've had my eye out for a time period where I'd be able to properly finish off and release the BWSF routine to give the BWF Primer a proper deserving 'sequel', and to provide the much needed overhaul to the RR that has been a long time coming.

I'm still not finished with the degree (that'll be in late 2023), but over the winter holiday period I have the first proper break I've got so far and I want to take advantage of it!

Alongside that, because of just how well received it was to host a 14 day follow-along for the Primer when it launched, me and the other mods thought it would be cool to do it again this New Years (and possibly make it an annual thing if it continues to be well-liked!) to give all the motivated new folks a fun communal start to their journey, and breathe a little fresh life into the sub and the discord server (which is really the heart of our community and where most of the good discussion goes on, and if you haven't joined yet you absolutely should.)

(I repeat, come say hi in our discord server!)

I'm going to go over what the BWF Primer event looks like for new users who will have joined the sub recently first, and then get to my little special announcement after that!

BWF Primer Follow-Along Event!​


Acutely aware of the fact that its been 2 years since any news came from me about this or anything else, I'm going to start with a quick explanation of what the BWF Primer is:

If you have ever wanted to get started with exercise, but found it a bit physically tough to start a whole routine all at once or felt overwhelmed by the amount of reading required before your first workout, that's what the BWF Primer is for!

The BWF Primer is a total-beginners program to get into bodyweight exercise. The way it works is as follows:

Starting from absolute 0, you will go through a guided 14 day period where every day you will be doing one or more of the following:

- Learning a new exercise

- Practicing that new exercise + previously learned exercises

- Reading a chunk of training theory to learn what and why you are doing what you're doing

All of this is previously something you would have to tackle all at once in your very first session of a more complete program such as the Recommended Routine (RR), but this way, you can gently ease your way into it, and let your body and brain acclimate over 2 weeks.

At the end of the 2 weeks, you are left with a 3x per week full body workout program that you can keep up with indefinitely, or eventually graduate from onto a more advanced program (like the RR, or soon... the BWSF Routine!)

From New Year's Day onwards, each day, the corresponding Primer day will be posted both on the subreddit and announced on our discord server for you to follow along with, and check in with others doing the same thing on how its all going!

If you've been looking to get started training, this is a great way to not only get some accountability for starting, but to potentially find a community of potential future friends! Lots of regulars on the discord server joined during the last New Years Primer event and are practically part of the furniture now, still going strong on their fitness journey.

Here is a link to a collection page of all the past Primer Event posts in one place, so you can have a look at how it all went!

Understandably for a New Year's event, it'll start on 1st of Jan 2023 and run til 14th of Jan 2023.

BWSF Routine Soft Launch! (Finally!)​


Now onto the more exciting stuff for the long-time users!

For those that have been following since the routine overhaul plan I had laid out, you'll know that the BWSF Routine is basically designed to take place of the current RR (or 'Recommended Routine'). They fill the same niche in terms of the strength level they're appropriate for, but the BWSF Routine was designed with a lot of the longstanding critiques of the RR in mind. Instead of just updating the RR again as we did in 2017, I thought it would be good to get a fresh start, even if the final outcome was fairly similar in concept (beginner BWF routines necessarily cannot be THAT different from eachother at the end of the day).

One thing I have been acutely aware of in the last 1.5 years of sitting on a nearly complete routine that is meant to replace the RR, is that in having discussions with trainees in the discord server about their training, it has become harder and harder to actually recommend the 'Recommended Routine', simply because of how glaring a lot of the critiques of it (that motivated this new routine creation) are. At the same time, because of logistical (and some personal health) issues, I've not been able to properly finish and launch the better alternative that I'd rather recommend to people.

In the last couple of weeks, however, I have been collating all that I had done already on the BWSF Routine and doing a little bit more, and what I am left with now is a 95% complete resource, only missing video examples for much of the exercise progression lists (most of which are the more advanced ones), mostly because I had wanted to film all of them myself for a sense of aesthetic homogeneity with the rest of the content.

I had hoped to film most of these myself, but due to the impact this degree has had on my ability to train consistently, some issues with my physical health and the consequent fact that I simply currently can't do free-standing handstand pushups anymore, for example, these lists are going to be incomplete for a while yet. The routine won't replace the RR in the subreddit's resources until then

At the moment, the resources I've written are all hosted on my site, but over the next couple weeks I will be migrating the information to be available all on the subreddit as well, just like the BWF Primer, so people don't HAVE to go to my site to access the content and that way no one can cry 'shill' :') .

Once everything is migrated to the subreddit and the video lists are done, the idea is that the BWSF will take the place of the RR as the actual main routine (alongside the primer) that is recommended to new users, and the RR (and some other routines) will be moved but still be available in a sort of 'legacy routines' section. The RR is, at this point, a massive part of BWF history as much as it is a routine so to remove it outright would be pretty criminal.

(Althought it will probably have to be rebranded to 'The Previously Recommended Routine' or 'The Routine Formerly Known as Recommended' /s)

I think ultimately, doing a bit of a soft launch so theres more of a gradual and public transition from the RR being the king routine of the sub to this new one will ultimately be for the best. It will be less of a jarring change, and the opportunity to get a tad of community feedback on the new routine will help to make sure its as much of an improvement as possible as it's being finished. Alternatively, if people seem to absolutely hate the idea of the BWSF routine replacing the RR, then that's also valuable information to know before we do all the work of editing up the wiki, but I'd hope everyone reads the routine and realises how much of an improvement it is!

On that note, here's a nice itemized list summarising the biggest broadest differences between the BWSF and RR.

BWSF Routine vs the current/'old' Recommended Routine

  1. No more mandatory blanket recommendation of a very long warmup that's useful for some people and an unnecessary waste of time for others
  2. Greater range in reps and rest based on the exercise performed and its role in the program because scientific understanding on the topic has evolved, and so 5-8 reps for everything is not actually believed to be the best approach for general strength/hypertrophy development anymore
  3. Removal of dips in favour of the pike pushup for an absolute myriad of reasons, not least because dips cause a lot of people costochondral pain and the old routine is missing a true overhead push
  4. Removal of excessive number of core exercises in favour of fewer, more bang for buck exercises
  5. Simplified by removing all the supersets and trisets (Although if you prefer them, by all means do it that way)
  6. Strict strength pre-requisites for pull-ups and pike-pushups to speed up journey through initial progressions and improve rep quality
  7. Related to above; removal of stop-gap exercises (e.g. scapular pulls, arch hangs, etc.) for people to do before they hit the strength requirements for pullups that are ultimately a very inefficient use of time and energy.
  8. Program templates for 3, 4 and two different ways of 6 times per week training frequency, all closely matched for weekly volume to be as equal as possible
  9. Way shorter and easier to read
  10. Has a pre-requisite strength requirement to do the program (3x8 Pushups and Horiz. Rows with good form, same as the Primer Graduation requirements!)
  11. Has an intended end/'graduation' goal before moving on to a more specialised routine, rather than trying to be effective indefinitely
  12. Different, better exercise progressions, with handy dandy homemade flowchart graphics to make understanding them easier, more expansive leg exercise progressions and less fear of "adding weight" as a progression
  13. Premade workout log for people that dont have/don't like using apps
----

The result of these differences is a program that hopefully:

- requires much less time to read on the first go

- is more accessible for people who dont have a long period of free time 3x per week, but may have a shorter period of time free 4/6 times per week

- is much tighter in time to completion

- is more effective overall due to better exercise selection

- is more focused on being good at what it should be good at (beginner strength routine), rather than trying to be good at everything indefinitely

- is more enjoyable!

That's all for now!​


If you have any desire to learn more or have a chat (and in case you've not got sick of me pointing out that it exists yet), the discord server is the best place to go! I'm there at least a little while most days so would be happy to answer questions there when I'm available

Thanks for reading this long!

Nick-E
 
@missbeauty My pleasure! No need to look forward really, as the routine itself is complete! It is simply that the video examples for the progressions are unfinished but 90+% of them can simply be googled as they are named in the program to get a half decent visual example
 
@dontdosadness So are we just gonna ignore the fact that this new routine links to Nick-E's personal website rather than reddits wiki?

One that blatantly advertises their own online-coaching and monthly membership to help fund "server costs" when instead, they can just use reddits wiki-system which works very well?

Is there a plan to put this on reddits wiki as has been done forever?

If no, then does the mod team NOT think a conflict of interest exists here for a mod who is very clearly also an active content creator? And I don't think you could make an exception here and say "Look at all this work he did for free, he deserves it!" ... that goes completely against reddits advertising policy. /@groo101 /@medic75 /@shediac
 
@17xande
At the moment, the resources I've written are all hosted on my site, but over the next couple weeks I will be migrating the information to be available all on the subreddit as well, just like the BWF Primer, so people don't HAVE to go to my site to access the content and that way no one can cry 'shill' :') .

You may have missed this part of the post, which is understandable as its quite long and you may have just clicked on the link at the top and run straight to the comments to point this out.

As of today the process of populating the wiki with this info HAS begun, because I unexpectedly had the day free to get a jump on it, and figured it wouldn't hurt to move it over before the video lists are done, as it is still usable in this scenario with the aid of google as I mention in the comment you piggybacked. All future references to the routine in the sub resources will be going to the wiki link rather than the link to my site.

https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/routines/bwsf/

EDIT: It has been raised that the page had been set to mod only. You should be able to see it now
 
@17xande >guy spends countless hours to educate people

>does it for free

>has an extra level of support for a fee

>random internet a-hole complains about seeing ads and not presented in the format of his liking
 
@dontdosadness Hi Nick, I just wanted to say the page itself is extremely wordy. And this is coming from someone who loves to read but this was just a crazy amount of text to take this all in and figure out what IS the actual routine when in actuality it is quite simple. So here's the actual tl;dr for those trying to figure out what to do.

The new routine goes like this:​


The following template is what you should do 3x/week. Do 3 sets of pretty much everything in this order.


Exercise Tutorial
Progression List Links
Sets/Reps Range
Rest Time
Pike Push-ups Pike Push-up Progression List
3×5-8
2.5 min
Pull-ups Pull-up Progression List
3×5-8
2.5min
Push-ups Push-up Progression
3×8-12
2 min
Rows Rows Progression
3×8-12
2min
Squats Squat Progression
3×8-15
90s
Bridges/Hinges Posterior Chain Progression
3×8-15
90s
Deadbugs Core A Progression
2×10-20
60s
Birddog Core B Progression
2×10-20
60s

Feedback:​

  • I think bird-dogs are pretty useless and a complete waste of time unless someone is extremely weak.
  • Deadbugs are aight but it shouldn't stop where it does and go to ab-wheel. It should go to static hollow hold and/or a dynamic "dead-bug to hollow hold" variations before flipping to the prone exercises (plank -> rollouts). And it should mention "rings/ab-wheel rollouts" as opposed to only ab-wheel rollouts cause then that's one less piece of redundant equipment since we often recommend you get rings anyway, and more importantly ring rollouts are FAR safer cause they're actually scalable as opposed to ab-wheels since the height is adjustable unlike an ab wheel that requires a literal ramp to scale, which is quite rare to replicate.
  • The posterior chain progression is confusing and messy. First question is: Why are there both hip hinge and glute bridge pathways in the same photo? Are people supposed to do one or the other or both? And overall, the whole flow-chart should be redone I think, to have more white-space between everything, cause it's overall quite messy (maybe a vertical flowing flow-chart rather than horizontal/landscape in this case since there's so much?). I think the only reason I understand the paths is because I'm familiar with the exercises, but overall, a bit overwhelming and too much going on.
  • The squat progression is far clearer. Lots of pathways could be confusing to people but still visually clear. (Btw why are they called step-downs and not step-ups?)
  • Overall, I like the simplicity of the routine. But the page itself is the exact opposite. As /@tetelestei said, you are not a laconic writer, and that should to be heeded without ego.
  • I like the differentiation of 3x5-8 and 3x8-15 for certain exercises.
  • The pullup progression is kinda weird how it goes from 3. chinups to 4a. mantle chins... and pull ups are 4b (shouldn't pullups be 4A and then mantle chins as 4B? And visually the arrows go left and right from 4b?)
  • The row progression is okay. I would recommend showing a rings option as most people don't have bars of any-height available to them as readily as adjustable rings. And a pathway that shows incline to horizontal one-arm ring rows rather than just archer rows (which require a wide space that not everyone might have, such as between a doorway).
 
@fromgenesistorevelation To put my feedback most laconicly: don't bury the good stuff.

There will never be a consensus on what's to be done with core and lower back training and a couple of different things. Reasonable people will disagree. A newcomer reading the "official sub routine" can either be presented with a fair outline of dissenting opinions or with just one opinion from a single reasonable person.

RR has the look and feel of a collaboratively edited wiki and I love that aspect of it. Reading it (especially the FAQ), you can figure out what is most important and agreed upon and what is a point of contention (just by way of different options being presented). You already have some idea on the principles of making your own bodyweight routine, what you can and cannot remove / modify. It's a living document and a beating heart of this sub.

Ok, it's not that living. The RR has needed a few changes for a while and daily thread regulars know exactly what they are, because they keep showing up. That can be easily done, easier than rewriting the whole thing it would seem.

I just don't want to see all the good information on the RR page archived like some old relic and never read by anyone. It deserves better than for its central role to be replaced with a streamlined work of a single contributor, regardless of who that is and what that fully described routine will turn out to be. That's because such a work will make choices that don't reflect the diversity of voices and information found in the RR.

That being said, I noticed how @dontdosadness accepts justified feedback and incorporates it into the new page. I was concerned that the page might already be "finished", but those concerns were unfounded. There is hope, but there is plenty of discussion and editing to be had before this grumpy curmudgeon will accept the BWSF as the "New Recommended Routine".

More feedback: remove the links to your personal site (for obvious reasons), add a link to the old RR (this whole post is an argument for it).
 
@remnant502 It has been almost a month, and I still see buy my $5 to keep me alive paragraphs at each end. It's okay if you link it to an image which has Nick-E [.com] as a watermark. But, letting people know in every exercise flow chart page that you can support by paying such and such. It went real fast from the community feel of r/BWF's RR to Nick-E's BWSF. I know I can do it for free, but why? How do I know other moderators have also looked into it if I don't see "we" in the Wiki.
 
@tetelestei
and daily thread regulars know exactly what they are, because they keep showing up

What are these? As someone who finished the primer and wants to start either the RR or BWSF I'm confused and would like to know the "needed changes" for the RR (maybe they should be added to the wiki page if they're so drastic that they warranted a new routine)
 
@kellyomara The RR has you starting the pull-up progression with scapular pulls, working up to 8x5s arch hangs in proper form (90 bend in the shoulder). Now it's not a bad idea to include these exercises at the start for a diverse crowd of fitness beginners, they are good for shoulder health, a solid preparation of the joints for what's to come and they give you a good mind-body connection with respect to shoulder movement in a pull-up. However, someone *severely* underestimated how long it takes to reach that final milestone. Take the benefits and move on after a few weeks, maybe even start with assisted pullups / negatives, if you're confident in your shoulders and your ability to cultivate good form in a deceptively simple movement.

Some other progressions are weird too and don't always seem to work. Your mileage may vary depending on your anatomy, mobility and existing strength. For example: the pistol squat progression has "everybody" in mind and it has you gradually working on your mobility as well as strength. If you already have the mobility (and form discipline) however, it's more optimal to do assisted pistols from the start. Keep that in mind if you run into any problems, it's difficult to make progressions that work for everyone. Personally, I think that in general there are too few progression in the RR and I'm a fan of many small steps. Take a look at the approach taken in startbodyweight, I followed this plan back in the day and it worked well.

RR has no overhead pressing, so ditching dips in favor of a pike pushup progression is a solid idea (it's already mentioned in RR, but without proper emphasis IMO).

Warmup should be personalized based on a variety of factors. In general it should get more attention the older you are, and the more difficult exercises you are doing. Specifically, you should tailor it to your needs. For example, I need to do a number of light squats until my knees stop making that grinding noise and are ready for heavy action.

Those are the remarks that I would expect little disagreement with. Like I said, everyone will give you different answers regarding core training and how you should approach lower back training. That is also heavily dependent on what you come with and what work is needed for you individually. You'll run into various mobility / posture / weakness issues and you'll have to research how to deal with them. This is in contrast to the staple exercises of pull-ups, squats and push-ups that nobody can go wrong with.

Finally, in contrast to both RR and BWSF (and probably many users), I personally think that having a double goal of strength and hypertrophy in a routine is a bit wrong-headed. You should consider just picking one and doing the appropriate rep ranges and rest times, instead of trying to do everything at once, each suboptimally. It wasn't all that noticeable in the RR, with its 5-8 reps and 3min of rest, which was a pretty good middle ground, but the BWSF is making this point a lot more relevant.

Come to think of it, I'm very suspicious towards this "new science" mentioned in the OP (bulletpoint 2), but I think I should wait a while before I bother the guy again.
 
@tetelestei Makes sense, thanks. Regarding your last point, I also thought that was confusing (even while following the primer) and maybe an alternative rep/rest numbers for the desired path would be a good thing to add.

In theory, you'd need to do more taxing reps (5-10 till max) with less rest time (60-90s) for hypertrophy, while for strength and endurance both of these can go up? (reps in the 15+ range, 2m+ rest times?)
 
@kellyomara Not quite. It's easy to look up the reps and rest times, but here's why they turn out like that.

As a general rule, you get better at what you practice, so if you want to be stronger you need to lift as heavy and as much as possible. The problem is balancing that with fatigue, so the sets need to be short and the rest times long.

Endurance is about doing a lot of easy reps with little rest, so you practice just that.

Hypertrophy is not something you practice, but a metabolic response to demands placed on the body. Here you want to take things (close) to failure to provide stimulus for growth, but again you need to balance this with fatigue so that you provide the most possible stimulus overtime. And of course your body needs the material to build muscle, so diet is a factor too.
 
@tetelestei Hi, I'm curious about your current stance on the BWSF routine. Like others said it bothers me that it's called "Nick-E's" routine and that all the exercises are linked to his website. I don't understand the decision to host the routine on his website, instead of posting it on Reddit first. He doesn't address it in this post and it makes him look like a 'shill'. I understand that he spent a lot of effort and time on this project and I'm grateful for that. But couldn't he have asked for some help from the community instead of doing it all by himself?

TLDR; Do you recommend the BWSF routine?
 
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