@savis I go off how I feel. Before I started to bulk again I got a baseline of my strength and my threshold. I also know currently from my last bulk how much weight and for how many reps I was throwing up. Having that is quite helpful. I don’t try to go heavier every single workout, it’s pretty impossible as well let’s say you do lat Pulldowns earlier that week hit that pretty heavy and you try it again later in the week you might not even hit that same weight depending on reps. Sometimes you just gotta go with the flow and slap on the weights when you feel motivated or strong
Progressive overload variations
- Thread starter savis
- Start date
So, I need a system that pushes me to do so, even if I'm not feeling it.@dawn16 How is this “progress” though? What are you tracking? How do you quantify how you’re feeling?
If you’re not a beginner, adopt a proper progression plan. Linear progression (weight on the bar) isn’t the only progression. In fact double progression is pretty much essential in hypertrophy training (eg 8-12 range, hit 8 then add reps session to session, upping weight at 12).
Your method is a good way to spin your wheels and end up doing less week to week.
If you’re not a beginner, adopt a proper progression plan. Linear progression (weight on the bar) isn’t the only progression. In fact double progression is pretty much essential in hypertrophy training (eg 8-12 range, hit 8 then add reps session to session, upping weight at 12).
Your method is a good way to spin your wheels and end up doing less week to week.
@kebo You get a baseline of your strength right. So let’s say you are doing incline dumbbell press, you can do 80’s for a max of 8-10 reps. You can either aim for doing that same weight for 10-12 reps, or you can go up to 85’s and try for 8-10. That is progressive overload. You don’t necessarily need to go heavy all the time. I don’t go by the book and try to make that a certain amount of reps. And when I say sometimes you have to slap the weights on that is bcuz you aren’t going to feel strong every single time you attempt to go up in weight or reps. Even doing 90’s for 6 is progressing, but then next workout knowing you need to get back to a rep count, is essential. Like I said, get a baseline of your strength and reps, add onto it in those 2 ways
jordanconnect
New member
@savis I had best success with double progression. Pushing out extra rep is much easier to achive than adding weight.
Also I count partial reps too, like bench 9 reps, but manage to get extra 1/3 before failure I write it down as 9.3, then next time I maybe almost do a rep, I write 9.7
This helps me see progress even when doing same weight/reps for extended time. Good for motivation.
Also I count partial reps too, like bench 9 reps, but manage to get extra 1/3 before failure I write it down as 9.3, then next time I maybe almost do a rep, I write 9.7
This helps me see progress even when doing same weight/reps for extended time. Good for motivation.
@jordanconnect Woah, never saw anybody tracking fractions of reps, that's fun!
Do you feel you have multiple weak points on most exercises? For me it's usually one single point, and if I'm after it - I can finish the set. But there's usually that one point where it's the hardest to go through it.
Do you feel you have multiple weak points on most exercises? For me it's usually one single point, and if I'm after it - I can finish the set. But there's usually that one point where it's the hardest to go through it.
@savis I follow a double progression with a certain RPE goal set to set. Say I'm aiming for 8-12 reps across three sets with an RPE of 8. The first sets weight is 50lbs, but I hit 14 reps before that 8rpe is achieved. I'll increase the weight for the next set so that I hit the goal within the rep range.
@savis I do 3x10 push pull legs. If on set 3 I can hit 15 reps I increase by 5 on next session.
If on any set I fail to hit 10 reps I deload by 20-25%. I only try for extra reps on set 3.
If I hit 10-14 reps set 3 I keep the weight the same.
Really simple. Most of the time after a deload. I'll fly past where I failed and PR before failing again.
So even though it's not linear due to deload. The deload allows you to recover and repair while still providing stimulus. And on deloads to make the lower weights harder I squeeze and flex longer at the peak and release the weight slower for burn. Explosive push or pull at the start.
Do this for everything. Meticulously logged in a log app. You see with the graphs even though progress isn't linear. It's typically two steps back 3 steps forward. My log shows the averaged trend line between the ups and downs actual line.
And the average trend line, trends towards stronger over time always. Means it works. You're succeeding.
It's simple. Is it the best? Probably not. But I am someone who needs to engineer their own system. And this has been really successful for me.
If on any set I fail to hit 10 reps I deload by 20-25%. I only try for extra reps on set 3.
If I hit 10-14 reps set 3 I keep the weight the same.
Really simple. Most of the time after a deload. I'll fly past where I failed and PR before failing again.
So even though it's not linear due to deload. The deload allows you to recover and repair while still providing stimulus. And on deloads to make the lower weights harder I squeeze and flex longer at the peak and release the weight slower for burn. Explosive push or pull at the start.
Do this for everything. Meticulously logged in a log app. You see with the graphs even though progress isn't linear. It's typically two steps back 3 steps forward. My log shows the averaged trend line between the ups and downs actual line.
And the average trend line, trends towards stronger over time always. Means it works. You're succeeding.
It's simple. Is it the best? Probably not. But I am someone who needs to engineer their own system. And this has been really successful for me.
needheaven
New member
@needheaven Lol 100% it's effective. You guys are obsessing over RIR way too much. 1. It's subjective 2. You'll grow if the stimulus was sufficient and 3. The optimal way to measure that stimulus isn't your subjective rir.
Let me give you an example of how this works. I do 10-10-10 its hard. That's all I can do. 101011 would be failure. Next session around I just repeat this weight. Now I hit 10-10-12 because I recovered got a little stronger. Still keep same weight. Third session 10 10 15. So 4th session we up weight and repeat. The last reps on the last set are always the most fatiguing and if done properly will net you the most gains.
Do you think on 3x10 set 1 the first two reps are contributing significantly towards anything? Not really.
And unless your resting 15 mins or longer if your weight is appropriately heavy enough to be stimulating your accumulating fatigue between sets.
So even if you just 3x10 with the goal of 1 rir. Set one will probably be 3 rir, set 2 rir, set 3 1 rir.
My point is all sets completed contribute to growth but the last set where your fatigued and it'd hardest will contribute the most with proper calories and rest.
To think all 3 sets will have the same rir is ridiculous unless your changing weight like drop sets or your altering reps.
Regardless even if I can 15 the 3rd set. All sets contributed. But set 3 and specifically the last 5 reps contribute the most. BUT it's also my indicator that I need to up weight. Because if I am strong enough to hit 15 reps on set 3 when I'm most fatigued we need to up the stimulus.
Beyond 15 reps starts to get a little silly and can be productive if done right. But most people don't do it right.
Rir even if your "experienced " ends up being really subjective. But measuring 15 reps is consistently measuring 15 reps.
So ya hit 15 reps on set 3 your most fatigued set. Because remember fatigue is cumulative it doesn't reset with the set. Hence you don't 1 rir with 3x10 unless your bullshiting yourself or resting a half hour. This indicates next time you up weight and you repeat. That's the progressive overload programed in.
A no nonsense no bullshit way of letting you know your appropriately strong enough to up this. No ego involved.
And with it being push pull legs. Take pull for example. ALL sets across ALL exercises are cumulatively fatiguing those muscle groups together because of the muscle overlap with lats/bis/trapz/rear delt.
So literally it works dude. I get a fucking wicked pump. Generally half of my exercises or more increase in weight each session because of calorie surplus.
And deloading is literally programed in. You fail any set before 10 reps. You deload next session. So you keep training in the optimal rep range at the optimal weight for your muscular development.
You can tailor this to whatever rep scheme you want. 4 sets of 8-12 do less than 8 deload. Do more than 12. Increase weight. Otherwise keep weight the same your at the optimal spot.
I chose 3x10 up to 15. Since last set is most fatiguing and closest to failure. It's the only set I go for extra reps. If your hitting 15 reps on your most fatigued set. Your too strong for that weight. It follows logic. It's really simple once you understand it.
Too many people are getting wrapped up over this RIR nonsense. No disrespect if you find it's working for you. But again simple progressive overload is king. It works and achieving extra reps is a nonsubjective way of measuring you need to increase weight to stay in optimal stimulus. 3x10 is tried and true. There's alot of rep schemes though. Do what you want. Do what your body responds to.
I've got stretchmarks all over my armpits fresh bright red ones from the growth meaning recent growth.
The system works. I designed it for me because it's super effective to follow. Doesn't matter if I'm having a shitty day or a good day. You stick to it. And you will progressively overload and get stronger.
And again keep in mind. Pull day. 5 or 6 exercises. ALL of them for the most part are hitting all of the same muscles. Some more than others but thats the point of doing different exercises. Rows hit biceps but i clearly curl on pull day to make the biceps a primary stimulus while at the same time it gets indirectly hit by everything else on pull day. Point is. The volume is there, the stimulus is there. It's literally self regulating in intensity if you fail the set goals and need to deload. So maybe lats didn't sufficiently reach close enough to failure on rows, they're getting hit with the same system on lat pulldowns and machine assisted pull-ups
( better for hypertrophy if you pull-ups after doing rows and lat pulldowns face pulls and hammer curls, because it's fatigued but more importantly you can progressive overload this easily. Starting the session off with bodyweight pull-ups can be too fatiguing for rows and lat pulldowns and progressively overloading full body weight pull-ups is more tedious, I use the assisted pull-ups machine as a finisher because after everything before and your wicked pumped now, doing half bodyweight pull-ups can be a brutal way to finish the session. I don't 3x10 this though. It's 4 sets each on a different grip starting wide and going inwards and it's 5-10 reps. When you hit 10 reps on all 4 sets. You decrease the weight assistance by 5)
If ya built tissue and got stronger your set 3 15 reps will tell you to increase the weight and to keep doing so until you aren't able to hit 15 reps. This probably answers your 5 rir question more directly. The goal isn't to be doing 15 reps to do 15 rep sets. It's to indicate you've outgrown that weight. Because if it's optimal weight for stimulus on 3x10 you shouldn't be able to hit 15. It's your measure to progressively overload.
Because when your past beginner. You can't keep slapping 5 pounds on every session. Deloads become a recovery and growth strategy. And sometimes you need to sit at that weight for 2-3 sessions. If your in-between 10-14 reps set 3. The weights optimal for growth. You can stay there for multiple session's and not stress about it.
If you fail to hit 10 on any set. Then given the overall training volume for that day. That weight is too heavy for you to be using.
You can rotate exercise ordering to continue to hit PRs and bring fresh strength to all of them.
And periodically. Say a weight you've been stuck at for 2 or more session's. Can't increase can't deload. You just dropset it for that day.
Eventually after monthes or a year. You can choose to follow a totally different rep scheme depending if you feel your stuck and need more volume for stimulus. Or if the volume is becoming too significant because the weights across everything are getting real heavy you can try 3x5 or 5x5 for a month just to push neural strength.
Let me give you an example of how this works. I do 10-10-10 its hard. That's all I can do. 101011 would be failure. Next session around I just repeat this weight. Now I hit 10-10-12 because I recovered got a little stronger. Still keep same weight. Third session 10 10 15. So 4th session we up weight and repeat. The last reps on the last set are always the most fatiguing and if done properly will net you the most gains.
Do you think on 3x10 set 1 the first two reps are contributing significantly towards anything? Not really.
And unless your resting 15 mins or longer if your weight is appropriately heavy enough to be stimulating your accumulating fatigue between sets.
So even if you just 3x10 with the goal of 1 rir. Set one will probably be 3 rir, set 2 rir, set 3 1 rir.
My point is all sets completed contribute to growth but the last set where your fatigued and it'd hardest will contribute the most with proper calories and rest.
To think all 3 sets will have the same rir is ridiculous unless your changing weight like drop sets or your altering reps.
Regardless even if I can 15 the 3rd set. All sets contributed. But set 3 and specifically the last 5 reps contribute the most. BUT it's also my indicator that I need to up weight. Because if I am strong enough to hit 15 reps on set 3 when I'm most fatigued we need to up the stimulus.
Beyond 15 reps starts to get a little silly and can be productive if done right. But most people don't do it right.
Rir even if your "experienced " ends up being really subjective. But measuring 15 reps is consistently measuring 15 reps.
So ya hit 15 reps on set 3 your most fatigued set. Because remember fatigue is cumulative it doesn't reset with the set. Hence you don't 1 rir with 3x10 unless your bullshiting yourself or resting a half hour. This indicates next time you up weight and you repeat. That's the progressive overload programed in.
A no nonsense no bullshit way of letting you know your appropriately strong enough to up this. No ego involved.
And with it being push pull legs. Take pull for example. ALL sets across ALL exercises are cumulatively fatiguing those muscle groups together because of the muscle overlap with lats/bis/trapz/rear delt.
So literally it works dude. I get a fucking wicked pump. Generally half of my exercises or more increase in weight each session because of calorie surplus.
And deloading is literally programed in. You fail any set before 10 reps. You deload next session. So you keep training in the optimal rep range at the optimal weight for your muscular development.
You can tailor this to whatever rep scheme you want. 4 sets of 8-12 do less than 8 deload. Do more than 12. Increase weight. Otherwise keep weight the same your at the optimal spot.
I chose 3x10 up to 15. Since last set is most fatiguing and closest to failure. It's the only set I go for extra reps. If your hitting 15 reps on your most fatigued set. Your too strong for that weight. It follows logic. It's really simple once you understand it.
Too many people are getting wrapped up over this RIR nonsense. No disrespect if you find it's working for you. But again simple progressive overload is king. It works and achieving extra reps is a nonsubjective way of measuring you need to increase weight to stay in optimal stimulus. 3x10 is tried and true. There's alot of rep schemes though. Do what you want. Do what your body responds to.
I've got stretchmarks all over my armpits fresh bright red ones from the growth meaning recent growth.
The system works. I designed it for me because it's super effective to follow. Doesn't matter if I'm having a shitty day or a good day. You stick to it. And you will progressively overload and get stronger.
And again keep in mind. Pull day. 5 or 6 exercises. ALL of them for the most part are hitting all of the same muscles. Some more than others but thats the point of doing different exercises. Rows hit biceps but i clearly curl on pull day to make the biceps a primary stimulus while at the same time it gets indirectly hit by everything else on pull day. Point is. The volume is there, the stimulus is there. It's literally self regulating in intensity if you fail the set goals and need to deload. So maybe lats didn't sufficiently reach close enough to failure on rows, they're getting hit with the same system on lat pulldowns and machine assisted pull-ups
( better for hypertrophy if you pull-ups after doing rows and lat pulldowns face pulls and hammer curls, because it's fatigued but more importantly you can progressive overload this easily. Starting the session off with bodyweight pull-ups can be too fatiguing for rows and lat pulldowns and progressively overloading full body weight pull-ups is more tedious, I use the assisted pull-ups machine as a finisher because after everything before and your wicked pumped now, doing half bodyweight pull-ups can be a brutal way to finish the session. I don't 3x10 this though. It's 4 sets each on a different grip starting wide and going inwards and it's 5-10 reps. When you hit 10 reps on all 4 sets. You decrease the weight assistance by 5)
If ya built tissue and got stronger your set 3 15 reps will tell you to increase the weight and to keep doing so until you aren't able to hit 15 reps. This probably answers your 5 rir question more directly. The goal isn't to be doing 15 reps to do 15 rep sets. It's to indicate you've outgrown that weight. Because if it's optimal weight for stimulus on 3x10 you shouldn't be able to hit 15. It's your measure to progressively overload.
Because when your past beginner. You can't keep slapping 5 pounds on every session. Deloads become a recovery and growth strategy. And sometimes you need to sit at that weight for 2-3 sessions. If your in-between 10-14 reps set 3. The weights optimal for growth. You can stay there for multiple session's and not stress about it.
If you fail to hit 10 on any set. Then given the overall training volume for that day. That weight is too heavy for you to be using.
You can rotate exercise ordering to continue to hit PRs and bring fresh strength to all of them.
And periodically. Say a weight you've been stuck at for 2 or more session's. Can't increase can't deload. You just dropset it for that day.
Eventually after monthes or a year. You can choose to follow a totally different rep scheme depending if you feel your stuck and need more volume for stimulus. Or if the volume is becoming too significant because the weights across everything are getting real heavy you can try 3x5 or 5x5 for a month just to push neural strength.
My bigger point now is. There's a LOT of strategies you can incorporate into this basic system to shake things up.
Training across multiple rep ranges and getting strong through all of them is good.
You could take this and session 1 pullday be high rep/sets. Session 2 be medium reps/sets and session 3 be low/rep sets. But track the weights for these sessions separately as you'll rotate from high volume lower weight. Towards heavier weight lower volume.
This would work incredibly well. You'd get growth out of all 3 phases.
Sorry to rant man. I know you asked about the RIR if it gets bad and how that effects growth or effectiveness of the system. The entire explanation as long as it is. Is to just kinda say. You're gonna grow. It works. It takes subjectiveness from how you feel to how the weights feel out of it.
Progression is self regulating. The volume with my exercise selection for push pull legs. Is literally perfect.
You don't need to hit failure or be right on failure every session and with alot of volume this will overtrain. As far as RIR and failure goes. It'll vary session to session. As the system self regulates The weight you should be moving. But this is good. Going to failure some days is good. It's not good every day. Staying far away from failure is good occasionally. It's not good to do this every day. Your closeness to failure will just vary and this back and forth both pushes you and prevents overtraining allows recovery.
I'm gonna apologize now because it probably sounds like I'm being a prideful elitist asshole. And I am not intending to make light of your choice and interest in the RIR concept. I'm just not a fan of it personally. Maybe that just means I suck at measuring it.
It's just what I do and it does work. But a lot of things will work for a lot of people. It's not the right way or the wrong way to do stuff. It's just designed to remove subjectiveness and to continuously overload when appropriate to do so. And to cut back when it becomes too much at times or certain sessions allowing for the deeper recovery will still providing a lighter stimulus.
So for me it's something I can super rigidly follow and continue to see results in the mirror month after month.
Last thing to add. If your cutting. Just avoid any additional reps period unless it's a super bomb ass day. Rotate the exercise order every session for a cut. So you can maintain weight on all exercises.
If you deload just do 10-15% goal is to maintain 90% strength or more which means muscle mass. While removing 100% fat.
The progressive overload system is really designed with its volume and everything to thrive in a calorie surplus but it can work in a cut. Even if you deload everything by 10% twice. This is just from early glycogen depletion hence rotating the exercises. You're not gonna lose lean tissue unless your cutting so hard you're doing 50% the weights you were doing.
This is purely a hypertrophy system. I wouldn't do this for deads or squats. I'd follow 5x5 stronglifts then do 531 when that fails.
Alright that's my full defense and justification and I mean it with absolutely no disrespect to you if it came off that way. I actually do hope you fully read this even if you disagree with the ideas behind it because I've never fully explained it, to this degree with anyone. And I'm actually really proud of it because of how well it is working for me. Bright red growth stretch marks tend to be newb gains and I'm well past that and I've got new ones ripping in again so my body's responding very strongly to this.
I've done other systems and programs. But this just works is extremely flexible towards your growth and what you can do with it.
I doubt anyone will try it exactly how ive written it here because honestly this post is too goddamm long even for my ADD but once you understand it. It's way simpler than the length of this post would suggest.
I'm using strength log by the way because designing your own workouts and tracking the weights. Is super simple to use with this system and the graphs are awesome.
If you got this far brother thanks for the read and your time. Lol seriously, mean that. Good fortune and may the gains keep coming for you.
Training across multiple rep ranges and getting strong through all of them is good.
You could take this and session 1 pullday be high rep/sets. Session 2 be medium reps/sets and session 3 be low/rep sets. But track the weights for these sessions separately as you'll rotate from high volume lower weight. Towards heavier weight lower volume.
This would work incredibly well. You'd get growth out of all 3 phases.
Sorry to rant man. I know you asked about the RIR if it gets bad and how that effects growth or effectiveness of the system. The entire explanation as long as it is. Is to just kinda say. You're gonna grow. It works. It takes subjectiveness from how you feel to how the weights feel out of it.
Progression is self regulating. The volume with my exercise selection for push pull legs. Is literally perfect.
You don't need to hit failure or be right on failure every session and with alot of volume this will overtrain. As far as RIR and failure goes. It'll vary session to session. As the system self regulates The weight you should be moving. But this is good. Going to failure some days is good. It's not good every day. Staying far away from failure is good occasionally. It's not good to do this every day. Your closeness to failure will just vary and this back and forth both pushes you and prevents overtraining allows recovery.
I'm gonna apologize now because it probably sounds like I'm being a prideful elitist asshole. And I am not intending to make light of your choice and interest in the RIR concept. I'm just not a fan of it personally. Maybe that just means I suck at measuring it.
It's just what I do and it does work. But a lot of things will work for a lot of people. It's not the right way or the wrong way to do stuff. It's just designed to remove subjectiveness and to continuously overload when appropriate to do so. And to cut back when it becomes too much at times or certain sessions allowing for the deeper recovery will still providing a lighter stimulus.
So for me it's something I can super rigidly follow and continue to see results in the mirror month after month.
Last thing to add. If your cutting. Just avoid any additional reps period unless it's a super bomb ass day. Rotate the exercise order every session for a cut. So you can maintain weight on all exercises.
If you deload just do 10-15% goal is to maintain 90% strength or more which means muscle mass. While removing 100% fat.
The progressive overload system is really designed with its volume and everything to thrive in a calorie surplus but it can work in a cut. Even if you deload everything by 10% twice. This is just from early glycogen depletion hence rotating the exercises. You're not gonna lose lean tissue unless your cutting so hard you're doing 50% the weights you were doing.
This is purely a hypertrophy system. I wouldn't do this for deads or squats. I'd follow 5x5 stronglifts then do 531 when that fails.
Alright that's my full defense and justification and I mean it with absolutely no disrespect to you if it came off that way. I actually do hope you fully read this even if you disagree with the ideas behind it because I've never fully explained it, to this degree with anyone. And I'm actually really proud of it because of how well it is working for me. Bright red growth stretch marks tend to be newb gains and I'm well past that and I've got new ones ripping in again so my body's responding very strongly to this.
I've done other systems and programs. But this just works is extremely flexible towards your growth and what you can do with it.
I doubt anyone will try it exactly how ive written it here because honestly this post is too goddamm long even for my ADD but once you understand it. It's way simpler than the length of this post would suggest.
I'm using strength log by the way because designing your own workouts and tracking the weights. Is super simple to use with this system and the graphs are awesome.
If you got this far brother thanks for the read and your time. Lol seriously, mean that. Good fortune and may the gains keep coming for you.
@savis Micro-loading, if you have the money buy magnetic plate pairs (.5 Lbs, 1 Lbs,), and start adding them when you hit rep goals. Cheap alternatives are adjustable wrist weights for dumbbells, light wrist weight sets (1 lb, 2lb) for dumbbells and barbells , large diameter washers for barbells (find narrow thickness ones and weigh them). For weight stacks on machines set them on the plate stack, or hang them on the pin.
This is a nice little trick I learned from reading John Christy in the 90's. When I was training too many other activities I was still able to grow my arms using these.
This is a nice little trick I learned from reading John Christy in the 90's. When I was training too many other activities I was still able to grow my arms using these.