Base level support of cardio for athletes

[g2perk]

I like to have concise data to understand what I need as an athlete to be at a certain level.

For strength it seems that we have a lot of information online on what are elite levels of strength and what are the following tiers levels. The same seem to be less prevalent for muscle endurance numbers and cardio numbers.

If we use the AB as a metric on cardio what I've seen is that elite levels follow the following parameters:

- 10 min Assault Bike: 6,2W/kg

To reach that level a good rule of thumb is having a zone 2 of around 2.25x - 2,00x lower than that, or 2,9W/kg - 3,1W/kg.

Having a solid aerobic base is necessary for the sport although in not sufficient to perform good as other complex parameters are involved.

Following a list of general base aerobic levels:

Tier (Games Level): 5,9-6,2 W/kg

Tier (Semifinal): 5,3-5,9 W/kg

Tier (QF): 4,3-5,3 W/kg

Please bear in mind that this is just a guideline. Real power output is important in the sport of crossfit. A 100lbs male may have a phenomenal W/kg output but be crushed by heavier athletes with lower W/kg indexes.

 

[dan0101]

@g2perk It’s often said at my gym that math is the hardest part of crossfit.

 

[heatherpedz]

@g2perk W/kg is a useless metric for cf, for males your 2k row need to be far below 7min and your 1k needs to be below 3:15, it doesnt matter if youre 5’1, 120 lbs and your watt/kg ratio is insane. There are probably a pretty large amount of semi finals level athletes with w/kg ratios much better than khrennikov, but it doesnt matter since his total watt output is so much larger, and his weight doesnt stop him from keeping up on the gymnastics. I know you already touched in this, but you still make the argument that it is a relevant metric, it is not. What matters is total watt output since there are no weight classes and no air resistance/gravity on the cardio machines.

Furthermore, having a 3w/kg state 2 output is on par with several TdF level cyclists, and while im not sure how the conversion between regular bikes and airbikes work since you can aid with your arms it seems very high. No CF athlete in history have ever been close to that

 

[faithfullyfit]

@heatherpedz The air bikes help a lot, for cyclists a 20 min average power of around 6 w/kg is amazing and crossfit muscle mass is just going to hinder that. But, even I can hold around 4.5 w/kg for 10 minutes on the echo. On the bike erg, which is stingy with watts compared to what cyclists use because it's measured at the fly wheel not the pedals, I'm closer to 3.2 w/kg.

I don't think W/kg is useless but just one of many metrics crossfit needs. It's a good way to track your own personal improvement. If you can hold a higher w/kg then you're likely on the right track unless you're giving up strength.

 

[heatherpedz]

@faithfullyfit Your first tangent is completely irrelevant to everything i said, maybe you misunderstood something?

W/kg is completly useless as it doesnt matter and dont tell you anything useful pure watt doesnt. If you are training for cf your weight fluctuations shouldnt be big enough for it to be a factor (eg. Higher bw equals more watt on the rower) if you can hold a higher watt youre on the right track

 

[faithfullyfit]

@heatherpedz You mean where you said you're not sure about the conversion between air bikes and regular ones?

Don't worry about it bud you'll get it one day.

 

[heatherpedz]

@faithfullyfit No, where you said they help alot. How is their utillity in any way related to how watts produced is comparable across airbikes and regular bikes?

 

[faithfullyfit]

@heatherpedz Help a lot to increase watts, I told you I can hold 4.5 w/kg on an echo bike and 3.2 on a bike erg for 10 minutes so the arms help a lot. I was just trying to add some info

 

[heatherpedz]

@faithfullyfit It was i who misunderstood you then, my bad

 

[faithfullyfit]

@heatherpedz No problem, best!

Also, you are totally correct about w/kg mattering less since unlike cycling in the machines you are not actually moving so gravity isn't in play.

I have still found it useful because over the years my weight has changed and I find it useful when comparing my paces in workouts to friends who have different weights but similar fitness.

 

[g2perk]

@heatherpedz To your second point air bike and AB register quite different watts for +/- same effort level.

To your first point, I wouldn´t do to far as saying that W/kg is a useless metric but rather say that W/kg can be a good indicator. In the context of crossfit a heavier individual will have an advantage on the machines and with external resistance implements, Although, heavier individuals in swill also spend more energy standing as they have to move their own mass e.g running, gymanstics pieces, even standing while doing external resistance movements.

If we look to cardio metrics in conjuction with other metrics such as muscular endurance and strength ones then we can have a more interesting starting point for an athlete. Is in this context that I use the cardio metrics for some basic training necessities.

 

[heatherpedz]

@g2perk Ok, tell me what w/kg tell you that watt doesnt, w/kg is valuable in cycling, cross country skiing, triathlon etc. because it allows you to move faster. If two people have the same watt output but one weighs 5kg less he will move faster, in cf those two will be equally fast. Using w/kg as a metric just shows that you dont know particularly much about cf

 

[g2perk]

@heatherpedz "Ok, tell me what w/kg tell you that watt doesnt, w/kg is valuable in cycling, cross country skiing, triathlon etc. If two people have the same watt output but one weighs 5kg less he will move faster, in cf those two will be equally fast."

In the sport of crossfit a large portion of activities are done standing up and/or supporting your own weight therefore the same principal applies as for other sports you referred. From two athletes who have the same output the lightest will have the advantage in a great portion of crossfit activities.

With this I am not saying that watts is a bad metric because it ties directly with the output of events. What I would say is that both watts and watts/kg are key indicators of performance. As I said in my original post : " Real power output is important in the sport of crossfit. A 100lbs male may have a phenomenal W/kg output but be crushed by heavier athletes with lower W/kg indexes."

 

[heatherpedz]

@g2perk I already responded to what you said in your initial post, my point is that your whole tangent brings nothing of value and w/kg is useless in crossfit. That you are standing up is completly irrelevant. In cycling your weight will work against you because of gravity, on the bike erg it will not.

The lightest will not necessarily have the advantage if the heaviest has the highest peak watt output and can lift higher weights, the same is not true in cycling. Watts/kg is completely useless because it varies greatly even among the games athletes and the athletes with the highest w/kg are not the best on endurance events. Meanwhile total watt output is much more equal and the athletes with the highest watt outputs are the ones who wins endurance events.

This is one of several quasi-scientific posts you have made which in reality brings nothing of value, and im tired of it

 

[g2perk]

@heatherpedz

1. "In cycling your weight will work against you because of gravity, on the bike erg it will not." - Weight can and will work against you in several movements of crossfit. In a substantial part of crossfit movements you have to support all of your weight against gravity and thus wat/kg is a great metric to address that situation.
2. "The lightest will not necessarily have the advantage if the heaviest has the highest peak watt output and can lift higher weights" - correct that is why I said that watt is also a relevant metric. Also either watts or watts/kg do not correlate highly with performance as in cycling or other sports due to the sheer complexity of crossfit. Althought I believe they can bring some relevant insight if used properly.

 

[g2perk]

@heatherpedz

1. "This is one of several quasi-scientific posts you have made which in reality brings nothing of value, and im tired of it." - You didnt find anything incorrect with my statements, you just find out to have a different perspective on how valuable/applicable those statements are. I'm fine with that.

 

[heatherpedz]

@g2perk

1. your whole post is about the value of w/kg as a way to measure conditioning, we already have a vast amount of data on 1k and 2k row times, which is a much better indication on crossfit conditioning on higher levels. So both your initial post and your consequent guidelines are trash
2. it doesnt necessarily have to be wrong for it to be useless, guess youre fine with that as well

 

[g2perk]

@heatherpedz Point 1 :

Since you referred the 1k row, I went back to my files and took the data from the 2020 games https://games.crossfit.com/leaderboard/games/2020?division=1&sort=4 .

I calculated the correlation between watts and final standing (0,239) and the correlation between watts/kg and final standing (0,470). I have done the same in other competitions where we have a standard cardio event and the results are similar: Stronger correlation between final standing and watts/kg than final standing and watts.

The way this pool of athletes is selected by the tests also affects this correlation because it seem to favor individuals in the range of 185lbs to 215lbs. The fact that the athletes only differ in 15 kg is also one of the reasons why the watt/kg correlation with final standing is better but is also true that watt and final standing is worse predictor than watt/kg.

 

[heatherpedz]

@g2perk Nice, point 1
I made up these data, and there is a negative correlation between being coached by you and open performance (-0.456, p < 0.05). Meaning not one person here should take your advice

 

[g2perk]

@heatherpedz The so called "made up" data:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...oZOVWdH15Pwe/pub?gid=0&single=true&output=pdf