Good ways to build work capacity for bodybuilding?

[jamierite74]

Despite building a good lean physique over 10+ years Ive noticed that I cant handle much volume/work. Hell I feel zapped after a couple exercises sometimes (I take my deloads dont worry). And it makes sense b/c I rarely do cardiovasular work other than walking around at work and training. What are smart (still recovering from lifting) ways to build up work capacity and conditioning so I can recover more efficiently from hard training, and handle more vol? Is it just a matter of doing SOMETHING to get the heart pumping?

 

[haydenreed]

@jamierite74 work capacity

conditioning

4 years without a rest day

http://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2021/11/conditioning-is-magic.html

http://mythicalstrength.blogspot.com/2022/03/conditioning-is-answer.html

These are some threads/articles from r/weightroom that I saved and found find really helpful. You can also look up gzcl and MyticalStrenght profiles from the first 2 links, both of them are doing some pretty crazy shit and both of them are jacked. For bodybuilding you don’t need to get that extreme, but it’s helpful if you do at least a bit of what they are doing.

 

[jamierite74]

@haydenreed Thanks for the links! Will read all of this soon.

 

[rudytoot]

@haydenreed Legend, thanks for the links.

 

[beautifullycreated]

@jamierite74 If you’ve been lifting well and gaining muscle for 10 years you should know by now that volume is something as an advanced lifter you cant keep plowing through especially if you train to gain muscle or strength. You simply are not capable of recovering once you are advanced due to the weight you can push. Volume is a tricky thing you balance.
As a newb working on volume/work capacity is a good idea because many are unfit and are unadapted. They are capable of much more by pushing the volume limits because their limits are very hard to hit before a wall of detriment comes.

I’d say if you are regularly training to a point you feel the volume is getting to you and you naturally back off, and are gaining still you are at your personal sweet spot.

If you want to switch to endurance training then its a very different situation and adaptation. You dont “endure” volume in terms of lifting necessary to gain muscle and strength as an advanced lifter. Thats just a recipe for pushing yourself into the ground.
I mentioned “as long as you are gaining muscle and strength” which is generally not possible as an advanced lifter without a good calorie surplus, so obviously im eliminating it as a variable in this answer.

 

[jamierite74]

@beautifullycreated Yea I feel ya. I started training at the end of 2007. I currently only do 6-8 sets per muscle per week. Most i ever did was 12 which I spent a long time doing but I was leaving a little more in the tank (and i couldnt believe people could handle more than ~12). Now each set is the brink of failure. Its not very much. I just feel like Im lacking in the cardiovascular work capacity department. My plan as of now is to make 3 changes. 1) More general cardio work (bike, run, elliptical play a sport) 2) Do some compound lifts in the 10-20rep range 3) Shorten rest times a little esp on isos b/c I know I take too long

 

[purposedgrace]

@jamierite74 6 to 8 sets are not enough volume. Even 12 sets are not enough volume for advanced lifters. You need close to 18 to 20. And to get to that point you have to slowly add more volume to build up that work capacity.

What are your symptoms of not having good work capacity?

With 6 to 8 sets you are peaking your strength. It is normal to loose strength when going to higher volume. If you lift the same weight with higher volume you would have actually gained muscle and get extreme peak in strength when going to 6 to 8 sets again.

 

[jamierite74]

@purposedgrace You def have me questioning my volume relative to my experience BUT I feel like the 'high volume for experienced lifters' concept is a little overblown. Ive been training 15 years and the most volume Ive ever done in a week per muscle was 12 sets (controlled but hard lifting with a couple reps in the tank). I never understood how people could handle more and chalked it up to them having lackluster intensity (I believe the majority of lifters lack sufficient intensity). I mightve tried 14 once and just couldnt do it. Sessions absolutely zapped me. Currently like you saw Im back to my roots doing 6-8 sets/muscle/wk but closer to failure (last rep is slow and i know ill fail the next rep). I might do 14 total hard sets a session and it still takes a lot out of me. Also the theory is that as you become more advanced you need to do more sets per week but I might even argue the opposite to be true. 1) When youre more experienced you get more out of each set (higher stimulus) since youre more skilled at it 2) When youre more experienced youll be using heavier loads which means more to recover from. There are plenty of examples out there of some of the best natural bodybuilders in the world doing lower volumes (plus high intensities), Ben Howard and a lot of the UK scene comes to mind. I feel its rare to see someone at that level touch 20 sets/wk. From my years lifting and following lifting Id almost say the ideal way is to chase those "physique changing loads" with low to moderates volumes in the 6-12 rep range or what have you (and controlled form). Muscle is a byproduct of strength. Every silver era elite natural physique was a powerhouse. But at the same time you have others on higher volumes while still doing hard sets like 2 of my fav natural lifters right now (Hersyovac and Geoffrey Verity Schofeld). Theyre able to recover from this work so maybe its the work capacity?

Now maybe I feel this way b/c I have mediocre work capacity? Sure I look lean but I dont do strenuous cardiovascular specific work that gets the heart pumping like I did in my early years. I feel a little zapped from a few exercises some days. If I go in the gym and do RDLs followed by leg press, Im zonked out lol. My rep strength sucks (anything over 12). If I can hit 250x12 on something and then load up 185 I still feel like getting past 12-15 is tough, not b/c of a strength weakness if that makes sense. I also realized that I take more rest between sets than I probably should going by the common "longer rest times are better" mentality.

 

[sisi]

@jamierite74 Conditioning options: TABATA, WOD’s, Barbell Complexes, HIIT

Cardio options: Running, Weighted Vest Walks, Biking, Swimming, Playing a Sport

Just start incorporating SOMETHING. Try different stuff and I almost guarantee you will find something that you enjoy. I personally love running. I also love incorporating actual conditioning workouts alongside my lifting.

 

[weepingwillow422]

@sisi Conditioning: Vince Gironda-style 6x6 or 8x8 with 20 seconds of rest

 

[metulburr]

@weepingwillow422 Giant Sets with minimal to no rest also get the job done

 

[piecebypeace]

@sisi This. Getting stronger helps too.

 

[jamierite74]

@sisi Definitely gonna start doing more of the "cardio" options bc i feel like thats a direct route to it but the "conditioning" ones I have concerns. I feel like theyll negatively affect my recovery from my real weight training sessions. For example a barbell complex could almost be classified as junk volume. What do you think? Just thinking to myself here 2 aspects I feel could imrpove it within heavy lifting sessions are doing more compound work in the 10-20 rep range (I can barely survive a hard high rep set on a demanding compound exercjse) and shortening rest times. Nothing crazy but i probably take way too long esp on isos.

 

[sisi]

@jamierite74 Here’s the key: the conditioning options will likely negatively affect your recovery TEMPORARILY. It’s just like reducing rest times. Your body has to make adaptations and before it does, you will feel it for a little while.

The really cool thing is that after the adaptations are made and your work capacity improves, I’ve found that doing actual conditioning in fact aids in my recovery. Most conditioning is not done to complete failure, and the workouts that are done to failure are not near as systematically fatiguing as performing compound lifts. This means that you are improving your work capacity, but your also getting blood flow throughout your body.

In my opinion, it is worth a decrease in performance temporarily if that means you will be able to make larger improvements long term.

 

[rudytoot]

@sisi Can attest to this. Previously an overweight beginner but I smashed the Air Bike for both Tabata and LISS. Also some boxing on the heavy bag and jumping rope.

Just started lifting in a commercial gym after dropping 100 pounds and I’m shocked at some people’s working capacity. I’m sort of ignorant about gym culture but it all made sense after finding out some people don’t see the value in cardio.

 

[dawn16]

@jamierite74 My couple of cents:

- If you use any cardio device like an elliptical machine that counts calories then you can conveniently progress by burning a little more calories each session. Good autoregulation because it's agnostic to intensity; HIIT one day and high/low-intensity steady state the next are fully comparable for progression. Also, different devices or modalities as long as you can keep track of burned calories. Impatience also works in my favor for once, as I got to up the intensity to finish faster.

- Shortening rest breaks between sets is an investment. The negative effect of short breaks on hypertrophy is nullified by being conditioned to short breaks, according to studies. It's an investment because it allows for (maintaining intensity over) higher volume in the same session, or for cashing out the investment in shorter sessions; good for adherence.

- Circuits maximize local muscle recovery for the rest taken between sets, which allows shorter breaks, which allows more systemic conditioning with a relatively smaller impact on performance. For example, instead of: Bench press > two min rest > bench press, I do (with the same bar) bench press > one min rest > BB row > one minute rest > bench press, etc. Even though the rest time between sets is half, there is more rest time on the level of the muscle. Other circuits I really like are: pull-ups > recover breath> dips > recover breath > pull-ups etc, and the super enjoyable ez-bar curl > recover > ez-bar overhead shoulder press > recover > ez-bar overhead triceps extensions, etc. I circuit exercises that I can use the same bar and load for while being within the 5-15 rep range.

 

[jamierite74]

@dawn16 Those are some great points! Thanks.

Looking into this whole work capacity thing the last couple days I saw the shorter rest time point multiple times. In an attempt to avoid short rest times I always found myself taking much longer rest than I probably should be. You offered a great point in support of that that never even crossed my mind. Now how short would you say is too short? Maybe just wait til breathing has calmed down a little? As a general number ~1min for isos? And maybe 2-4 for compounds depending how demanding the lift is? Ive never tracked rest times but i bet im over 3mins on isos and more for compounds.

As for the last point my main gym for the last few years has been a suuuper packed Powerhouse gym so I cant do antagonistic supersets there BUT i joined a new local gym thats always empty and Ill definitely consider this. I dont like leaving equip unattended b/c I always think someones gonna try to jack it lol.

So reading the replies in this thread I have 3 plans going forward. I like the first 2 b/c they're directly in line with my muscle building goals and dont have me doing extra side quests but 3 feels like the most direct route:

1. Shorter rest times
2. Some compound work in the 10-20 rep range b/c these murder me
3. Some cardiovascular work (bike, run, elliptical, play a sport, etc). Anything to get the heart pumping.

Thoughts?

 

[dawn16]

@jamierite74 Good thoughts. Nothing to add, except:

Except for dips - pull ups (which are just conveniently placed together in my gym) the circuits (not supersets because I usually do pause between sets) I mentioned are with the same equipment, and the same load. So it isn't unattended and I don't hoard more equipment than I would do for one exercise. One important thing to note is that when doing bench-rows, always lift the bar off the bench rack with a supinated grip or you'll create shoulder impingement like I did when I lifted it off with a pronated grip. Then place the bar on the bench and set up. Rowing with the bench between the legs is not a problem, but it's not a problem to take a few steps back and lift from the floor either.

 

[trulea]

@jamierite74 Sounds like you need to eat more calories before thinking about burning more with cardio. You need energy to lift, that comes from calories. If you increase your volume you will need more energy. If you start gaining fat once you are eating more then add cardio to trim the calorie surplus.

 

[jamierite74]

@trulea Cardios not just a tool for fat loss. Theres a whole nother aspect of it for work capacity. Conditioning for cardiovascular health, youll be able to handle and recover from more bodybuilding work. I was good on this in my earlier years (started in 2007) but have been slacking on it for years now. And btw on average im in a surplus 9+ months a year.