How are you building and increasing connective tissue (e.g. wrists and elbow)?

[bibbigo]

I know diet and nutrition can help promote connective tissues growth, and I've read bone broth, having enough protein, and other foods may contribute to connective tissue. However, I am more interested in exercises, conditioning, and prehab that people are doing to aid or promote connective tissue growth.

Since Feb '18 I've been working with the rings which is when I started training SAS. Since then and for the last 10+ months I've read about the importance of building up connective tissue in the elbow, wrists, shoulder, etc. I've been working on Planche training for the past few months and ran into some setbacks, so extensive prehab and conditioning my elbow and wrists have been a focus.

In the past 1-2 months, I've given more thought to connective tissue development, to help me achieve my advanced BWF goals. So I've adjusted my workouts and training in an effort to promote connective tissue growth, or at least that's what I have in my mind. I'm curious if others have the same thoughts, and what they are doing to make this a focus vs. just letting it occur with a normal exercise such as ring support holds, and pull-ups, etc. Sure, I did those too - and even in high volume, but this is more about a focus on connective tissue development and growth.

Do both SAS and BAS help promote connective tissue growth - is there a consensus on specific exercises which are preferred or better for conditioning the elbow, for example?

My workouts include the following exercises, so I'm providing some examples of what I believe are helping in this way, however, there's no real way to measure my progress on connective tissue growth and making my elbows and wrists more conditioned, stronger, bulletproof.

Rings side support holds 12" / 30cm from side	2x30	3x week	SAS and rings warm-up
RTO 45 support holds	2x30	3x week	SAS and rings warm-up
RTO 90 w/forward lean 45 deg support holds	2-4x25	2x week	SAS conditioning
Barbell Wrist roller @ 53lbs	6x24 (144 reps) both forward and backward, 288 reps total	2x per week prehab	Alternate with straight arms and bent arm per set to condition forearm
Wrist mobility	5-10 mins various	5x per week in my warm-up and mobility before strength and skill work	My wrist mobility has improved, I see this as maintenance for the long term.
Elevated Planche Leans - hands backward	6x15	3x week?	newer exercise progression which with hands backward puts the bicep tendon under tension for a lot of time. I'm getting better with these so my volume and lean angle will increase as I progress.
Bicep curl @ 8lbs	3x50 1 sec concentric, 3-4 sec eccentric to elbow lockout, per arm = 300 reps total	2-3x per week prehab	Set 1 = supinated grip, Set 2 = neutral grip Set 3 = supinated grip
FUTURE: Forearm levering with sledgehammer 8lbs	TBD	TBD	In December I want to add forearm and wrist conditioning with sledgehammer levering exercises that I learned about in the /r/griptraining sub. Thanks to /@peterbrent and to the crew there for providing a lot of constructive feedback and help!

Exercise
Sets/Reps
Frequency
Comments

I think the bicep curls are conditioning that bicep tendon the most/best in my opinion as a BWF enthusiast and non-professional. I started this at 5lbs, and increased to 6lbs, 7lbs, and now 8lbs which has gotten easier in the past 8 weeks. The high volume prehab and SLOW eccentric seems to be helping me (thanks /@deborah123!. I've written about this prehab exercise and my progress before, and it is commitment for sure since 300 reps x 4 secs = 20 mins.

Side note: I had some forearm splints when I started elevated planche leans using parallettes. I stopped using parallettes for my planche training (planche leans and PPPUs) and have since progressed to a hands backward position which I know is more difficult, but I believe will help me condition the elbow and my further develop my SAS further. I have good FL and BL, but I believe my supinated grip BL would improve to say a ~10 secs clean hold if I could improve my elbow and bicep/tendon conditioning.

OAC: I don't train the OAC, and in fact have little desire to achieve this currently. I want to condition my elbows much more before I even attempt the progressions, so in 2019 Q1/Q2 I may experiment with this as a secondary goal. In my mind once I've improved my pulling strength from 1.82 x BW pull-ups (1RM) to something a little greater, and further conditioned my elbows I can attempt the progressions safely, with a lower risk of injury. I am keen to avoid injuries which would be a major setback in my training. My logic is with all of the prepartion I'm doing once I do formally train the OAC it should be easier and faster to achieve, safely.

What are you doing for connective tissue development and growth? Any feedback about my thoughts and training?

EDIT: another example and some typos.

 

[klearskyz27]

@bibbigo Rock climbing 3x a week has worked wonders for my wrists, elbows and shoulders. Minus a setback I had from an overdeveloped back messing with my rotator cuff. Now I don't skip my antagonistic exercises heh.

 

[tanyagomes]

@klearskyz27 I was debating canceling my gym membership and using the money to go to a rock climbing gym 1-2 times a week. Would you mind articulating your statement on how its helped your elbows and shoulders? Any other benefits you've noticed I would like to hear about too.

 

[klearskyz27]

@tanyagomes When I first started climbing I was over the moon about it and didn't quite give myself enough time to rest. I'd sometimes go 2-3 days in a row and on those consecutive days I'd get crazy pain in my elbows/shoulders if I pushed to hard. It was akin to growing pains. A pain that wouldn't go away no matter how I positioned the joint and would persist for a few hours after I was done. Flash forward ~2 years and if I wanted to I could go 2-3 days of climbing in a row (And on occasion I do if a friend is getting into the sport, but I don't recommend it. Rest is important!) with minimal discomfort. The general numbers I've come across is tendons take about 10x longer to strengthen then muscle and spending good amounts of time on the wall doing things like holding a good bit of my body weight on just the tips of my fingers or dangling upside down did the trick! Additionally the dynamic nature of climbing really helps strengthen the stabilizer muscles helping to prevent injury.

The other benefits are amazing as well! As climbers we're usually (obviously) enthusiastic about the sport so feel free to take this list with a grain of salt. I'll try and be brief lol.

1. It's a great upper body/core workout. My back is ridiculous right now, my forearms are basically steel at this point, and if I feel like freaking out my girlfriend I flex my shoulder muscles and my neck pretty much disappears. She hates it because "you look like one of those gross body builders when you do that." I think it's hilarious.
2. It's engaging. When you're climbing you have to think about how you're positioned, where your center of gravity is, what the next move is etc etc. Every wall is it's own puzzle to crack. To me it's infinitely more entertaining then just doing the same movement over and over or picking up the same heavy stuff and putting it down again. It keeps me going back.
3. Balance. You wind up pushing past normal "comfortable" positions and really kinda play with how your body can move. Eventually it becomes second nature. I find it bleeds over a lot into little things in day to day life.
4. The community is great. Obviously this one is going to be a YMMV sort of thing, but my general experience with climbers has been awesome. Nice, friendly folk that are really stoked to show newbies the ropes. Pun only halfway intended.

OK I'll wrap it up there, but if you have any other questions or anything feel free to ask!

 

[zetetic999]

@klearskyz27 Were you doing BWF in conjunction with climbing?

I climb maybe once a week right now but want to move to 2-3x a week. However, I'm worried about the rest days. Right now I do BWF Mon, Wed, and Fri for an hour during my lunch time (lucky enough to have a gym at my office).

Should I be doing climbing in the evenings on the same days as BWF and rest on Tues/Thurs/Weekend, or do you think I'm ok doing BWF/climb/BWF/climb/BWF/climb/rest?

Any experience with this?

 

[klearskyz27]

@zetetic999 I started with doing a slightly modified version of the RR on days when I didn't climb with Sunday as a rest day. I did pull ups, dips, pushups, and rows (although I question how necessary those are since there's a lot of crossover with climbing) those days and after I climbed I'd do the core triplets and legs at the gym since they had the equipment there. That was a bit much for me so we cut a day of the BWF to allow for extra rest. That was the sweet spot for the GF and I, but you can shoot for 6 days a week if it works for you.

Just listen to your body and if it says it needs an extra day off, listen to it.

There are also a few antagonistic exercises I recommend fitting in somewhere in your routine. Reverse wrist curls, internal/external shoulder rotations, finger pully extensions, and definitely don't skimp on the pushups/dips. Oh, and a good shoulder warmup is invaluable before getting on the wall to help prevent injury as well. My dumbass got sidelined for 6 months because of an injury from not doing my antagonistic exercises and not properly warming up. That was no fun lol.

 

[zetetic999]

@klearskyz27 Thanks for your reply!

 

[believer4892]

@klearskyz27 Awesome! This is the exact conversation I was looking for as I bought a climbing membership again about 3 weeks ago after not climbing consistently for a few years, and then started doing the RR about two weeks ago after enough lurking. I love BWF, but I halfway feel like I'm wasting my membership by not climbing more, and I really love climbing. Like you said, it's just more engaging and dynamic. I think I'm going to adapt your routine of 2 days of a modified RR, 3 days of climbing, and two days of rest. Thanks for the responses and to /@zetetic999 for prompting this discussion.

 

[klearskyz27]

@believer4892 Glad to help friend! And good luck beating those walls! As a side note, it's my bday today and the gf and I are about to hit the slopes on our little ski trip. Trying snowboarding for the first time. It's sure to be equal amounts fun and embarrassing lol. But your comment adds even more positivity to the day. Much appreciated

 

[tanyagomes]

@klearskyz27 Just saw this now sorry , Thanksgiving in US had me off reddit lol.

Wow thanks for the in-depth response.

A few more following questions :
My training is oriented around learning skills and straight arm statics, would rock climbing slow me down or be much for my body at once?

How long is a normal training session for u when u go climbing ?

How long have u been training for before u started climbing ?

 

[klearskyz27]

@tanyagomes Climbing has its own skills associated with it. It's really up to you if you think there is good crossover with the ones you're currently training for. FWIW good climbing technique has you keeping your arms as strait as you can as much as you can when making moves. Bent arms gas your bicep and forearms pretty damn quick.

As for the to much for your body question, it's all gonna depend on how much rest your body needs. Get plenty of sleep and take off days when necessary and you should be fine.

We normally climb for an hour to an hour and a half depending on what we're feeling that day (projecting hard sends, volumes of easy walls quick for endurance, focusing on different techniques, dicking around with bouldering, etc. etc.) then tack on an extra 15-20 mins of other gym work at the end. Currently that's where we get our antagonistic exercises in since our non-gym days have been taken up by leg endurance exercises for our ski trip next week. That being said we don't have a strict training routine for climbing. We do it because we enjoy it. There are good routines out there for people that want to do it more competitively that are very structured if that's your thing.

Honestly I hadn't trained much before I hit the wall for the first time (and it showed! lol). I had done BWF for a month or two before I went to the gym for the first time. Part of a new years resolution fitness kick that actually managed to stick. But I've taken some friends that you'd consider "gym bros" and their general consensus was that it still kicked their ass. The movements and positions you wind up in are just very different from the more targeted approach most people have with BWF/weightlifting routines. Your weight will play a role in the difficulty as well. When I first went (6'4, 235lbs.) my buddy came with (6'5, 155lbs.) and was breezing up walls I was struggling on.

At the end of the day climbing more gets you better at climbing more. The beauty of the sport is you can climb well (good technique, smooth transitions, the effortless looking stuff the really good climbers do) and improve, but you can climb shitty (muscling up a lot, shitty foot placement, unnecessary dynos) and still improve by just getting stronger!

 

[kitkitkat]

@tanyagomes I'm not the person you asked, but I've been climbing for years now, and it's a great sport, highly recommend trying it out. The gym I climb at has rock walls, classes, trainers, a regular workout/weights area, cardio, and yoga, all available in one membership. Not every climbing gym is like this, and it depends on the area you live in, but it's not uncommon either.

As far as other benefits, it's an incredible full-body workout that is also mentally stimulating. Personally, I need mental stimulation at the gym, I can't just do every workout lifting weights or cardio, and climbing is the kind of thing that gets you excited to go to the gym. It's difficult to learn at first, but as you start to progress, it's somewhat addicting. There's also a really great social aspect to climbing that you don't find in standard gyms. And if you really like the sport you can take it outside and travel to all kinds of places with it. It definitely has inherent danger and an adrenaline rush that goes with it, but you can find your comfort level anywhere within the world of climbing disciplines.

Edit: forgot to add there are a lot of tools and gym equipment at climbing gyms that are really beneficial for a bodyweight focused workout that you won't find at a standard gym. Rings, hangboards, campus boards, parallettes, and usually a padded floor area for practicing handstands and stuff in a safer environment.

 

[kitkitkat]

@klearskyz27 Lol, I feel the opposite. I'm here looking through this stuff to combat the hell that years of climbing has put my joints through. Elbows and shoulders are some of the worst ailments I've had as a result of climbing. I love this sport, but jesus is it bad for your joints

 

[deborah123]

@bibbigo I like:

• Support holds -> rings support -> RTO support
• German hang -> supinated skin the cat -> progress tuck to pike to BL
• PPPUs usually get good conditioning
• Dips at the top of the motion if you pause, especially on rings
• Biceps curls as supplemental
• Stretching if you are lacking normal range of motion or if things are tight (if things don't improve with stretching, it might be something other than stretch such as fixing imbalances, weaknesses, or instability).

Generally like 20-50 rep range. 2-4s eccentrics if needed, especially if someone has tendinopathy. Can be variable if someone needs lower reps or less eccentrics though.

Lots of other useful advice found in the tendinopathy article that can also be prehab:

http://stevenlow.org/overcoming-tendonitis/

 

[johm]

@deborah123 Have you found anything on dietary stuff like collagen supplementation, bone broth etc?

 

[deborah123]

@johm See the last section of the posted link!

I linked most of the tentative studies on supplements.

Most of them either have no benefit or may have a minimal benefit compared to other interventions. If you have money to spare and want possible improvement then go for it.

 

[johm]

@deborah123 Ah guilty as charged. Thanks man.

Spare money to spend on tendons is probably better spent buying OT than collagen haha.

 

[latestnews]

@bibbigo What is SAS and BAS?

 

[dawn16]

@latestnews Straight arm strength vs Bent arm strength

 

[bibbigo]

@latestnews I just assumed the BWF Glossary included these, but I now see it doesn't. I'll make a request to the Mods to review and update this, with a list of my suggestions.

Maybe I'll just make a new post to collect the community's input instead too.

• SAS = Straight Arm Strength
• BAS = Bent Arm Strength
• DF = Dragon Flag
• DP = Dragon Press
• HF = Human Flag
• Inv = Inverted Hang
• TUT = Time Under Tension
• PU = the glossary lists this as Push Up, however, I and others commonly use this to also mean Pull-Up.
  
• Str = Straddle, e.g. the progression on an exercise e.g. Straddle exercise name
• APT = Anterior pelvic tilt
• PPT = Posterior pelvic tilt