Is S&S really enough? Read mor for context. Im pretty new to this fitness thing

@hunter101 Appreciate the advice. Im so knew to this its all so overwhelming. Ill check out DFW and see whats up. I wish i had the time to work out morning and night. Thatd be nice. Thank you so much for the information!
 
@hunter101 Currently reading Enter The Kettlebell for the foundation, and S&S is based off the minimum program in that book. And when I understood it correctly, it's meant to build up a base strength with rather simple exercises (swing + get up) while simultaneously practising more advanced movements like clean & snatch.

Then, when you know how to do the more complex movements, you switch to Rite of Passage which consists of Clean & Press and Snatches as the main goals with Swings added for modulation.

I don't know how Pavel frames S&S, but I can imagine, it serves a similar purpose and is not meant to be run forever?
 
@griv72 Sorry, this got a bit long.

In short, I don't think S&S covers most of your bases. In fact, I think it even misses or neglects half of them, while RoP by the sounds of it fixes most of my issues.

I haven't read EtK, so I can't speak to that - but in my opinion RoP sounds like a way more reasonable program.

I haven't memorised S&S, so I had to skim through it. There's a lot of things going on in the book - for example, he recommends doing S&S every day if used as a standalone (with occasional rest days if needed), while dropping the frequency to 2x/week if run alongside "a serious strength training program" (his words).

This part is good. It helps reinforce the idea that you can train every day, or at least close to that.

My main contention with S&S is volume and exercise selection:
  • I believe the swings are too low in volume to be your only serious lower body training
  • There's also next to no quad work. Sure, ther's the prying goblet squats as a warmup, but I don't think they count. And a total of 5 overhead lunges each side from the getups.
  • I also don't get the hype surrounding getups. But I got way stronger at getups by just improving my press.
  • The getup works your shoulders, and throws some minimal volume at your chest and triceps, but again, it's very limiting for the upper body. They're supposedly great for your core, but my obliques have been way more sore from a hard workout with a lot of double kb front squats or single kb presses.
  • Where's the back and biceps work? The swing works your back a little, but I don't believe it's enough.
In the introduction to the getup Pavel tells a story of a strongman who told a prospective apprentice to get back to him once he could do a 100lbs getup - the implication being that you don't need much else until you've mastered the getup.

That being said, I don't hate getups - now and then I'll do them as a warmup, or to have some fun if I feel too beat up to do some hard training.

Compare that to just clean & press. The only thing that's really missing there is the chest and quads. You can get very far just doing clean & press, and if you add squats and snatches I think you have something that could be run for years.
 
@mr_loevinger In my honest opinion, no. I am a bit biased as I am not a fan of simple and sinister. I am sure it has its place but a simple program with clean and press + front squats is vastly superior. Check out Hardstyle Kettlebell Pro on instagram. The guy gives out great programs and content that could last you years, and it’s legit.
 
@mr_loevinger A question Pavel would ask is: “Enough for what?” If you are wanting to be a bodybuilder, powerlifter, or crossfitter, then no, it’s not enough. If you are just trying to stay fit, lean, and healthy while developing functional strength, then, sure, it’s enough. The beautiful thing is: what do you have to lose? You will probably lose some weight, if you are new to fitness. You may also gain some new skills: new pr’s in TGU & Snatches and have an enviable posterior chain and grip. Additionally, due to the frequency of the S&S workout, you aren’t just doing a “work out”; it is more of a way of life. This can also be helpful for people struggling with addiction—replacing one everyday, unhealthy, activity with a healthy activity done everyday.
 
@mr_loevinger There's an old article on the strongfirst website called "novocaine training". A training day, if i remember correctly, is basically made up of 2 components:
  • 1. Base kettlebell workout (eg S&S, snatches, etc), followed by
  • 2. Supplementary work (eg barbell exercises etc)
The base kettlebell workout is the priority of the training day. Supplementary work is encouraged, but can be autoregulated on an as need basis
 
@mr_loevinger I've been swinging kettlebells for about 14-15 years now. Started with Pavel and the ETK program. Learned a bunch of other stuff, found some fun workouts to do (anyone remember that guy Anthony and his Providence and Newport videos?) I was mixing it up, and avoiding boredom, but wasn't focused on anything and would say it was more just general fitness fun. I did S&S at 40 years old. I made it past 24kg and was fine with 32 two-handed, but I was just lagging in grip strength for one-handed swings at that weight. I ended up getting pretty bored of the program eventually. Just so monotonous. These days I've been using a fitness app called Ladder. It has a coach who does all kettlebell workouts, and I really appreciate the focus and variations, I'm hardly ever bored with her workouts. I'm having a great time again, and at 47 I'm in the best shape I've been since my early 20s. I'm strong and look good. So, to answer your question directly, S&S alone probably isn't going to do it for you. There's just so much you can do with a kettlebell, so much fun you can have, and still do swings and getups.
 
@mr_loevinger S&S is amazing, but I think what a lot of people are missing is that it is better for experienced lifters. They say this in the strongfirst forums.

I primarily do S&S and I am in better shape than ever, and I have always been in great shape. I think in general it just makes your body denser and tougher. I am out doing very physical things every single day and it just makes everything easier.
 
@mr_loevinger Stick to what's working for you already. Don't fall for internet fools gold; Pavel hocks a lot of it. Claims that sound suspicious are just that. If it sounds too good to be true, it always is.
Ryan
 
@mr_loevinger Geoff Neupert, a great developer af a number of programs you will see mentioned here a lot, including Dry Fighting Weight (DFW) and the Giant, is a big advocate for the clean and press with double kettlebells for good reason.

But I think it is important to note a few things he says about kettlebell exercise and a person’s progression through those levels. He has a number of free videos on YouTube where he covers these topics and if you sign up for his emails he covers them there at times, too.

I will mention a few you might want to consider but it is better if you go look at his advice on YouTube for the reasoning, detail and other useful advice…

He is not a big fan of swings in his more advanced programs but he says you you should learn it and get in your 10,000 swings before moving on because it develops important skills and capabilities you should have before moving on to more advanced work

He also talks about doing the exercises single handed being a safer starting point because many of us have issues. Some of these issues get worked out by doing it on one side. And you will get the opportunity to find them before “stress testing” by using doubles.

A lot of people stop training with kettlebells because of getting hurt training with kettlebells. Generally pushing to quickly befor your body has had a chance to catch up with the demands or before you have learned to do certain movements well or before you have discovered limitations.

A good coach will guide you past these challenges, based on good judgment and experience. Learning on your own, you will need to exercise good judgement for yourself. Which is why I suggest at least looking at what Geoff Neupert has to say based on his experience.
 
@mr_loevinger Okay so I totally see where you are coming from S&S is a fantastic program check out Kettlebell Strong by Geoff Neupert. His program with the clean and press gets the chest and arms also super simple. I do the kettlebell strong and S&S together has changed my life 3 workouts takes me about 45 minutes plus stretching to do so not a huge time killer. The nice thing about that program is it is progressive as well and you will go up in KB weight downside (possibly) is you need two kettlebells
 
@emerritt Hell ya! With out looking into "kettlebell strong" yet (i am literally just reading this and responding), i feel like you do understand where i am coming from. I just want as simple as possible and to know i am working ALL of my muscles. S&S seems fantastic and i want to see it through its just missing the chest and arms. Thanks a lot!! I am going to check Kettlebell Strong right now.!
 
@mr_loevinger "Is x enough?" or "Is x worth it?" are questions that have a major thing missing: For what? For whom? What is your context? What is your actual goal?

If you think you are getting a bodybuilding program, S&S is not it. If you are not doing anything and need to get going, S&S is excellent. If you need to do something less intensive between more intensive programs, S&S is excellent.

Why are pecs important to you?

What S&S does allow is doing other stuff too since S&S is rather low volume per day. Yes, you can do pushups and pullups. As always, you need to observe how you are doing, progressing and especially recovering.

S&S does say don't modify the program and that is generally very good advice for all programs. That is how you know how the program feels and works. If you change it, it is something different. Once you've been on a program for a cycle or two, you have a better understanding of it and what it might require for you. Beginners and people who find a new interesting program every day will have issues with this.
 
@mr_loevinger Kettlebells are fun. They’re great for conditioning. Not really anywhere near the best for physique development.

Definitely add push ups. And if you’re new to lifting start with chip ups (they also are great for your biceps).
 
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