Kettlebells and longevity

[dee77]

@hoanphamkhong1 What yall think of rhinostrength?

 

[dawn16]

@dee77 Fun to watch, admire the strength - which is impressive. Does not pretend to recommend programming, nor hide the fact that he's essentially doing strongmen/circus tricks. Since he doesn't seem to take himself or what he's doing seriously and it's pretty obvious that "don't try this at home" applies I find his contributions to the cesspool of social media a net positive. Also, clearly dude has solid fundamentals.

 

[dawn16]

@juancarlos Good post, love Peter. His posts and podcasts are so good. Anyone interested in longevity should definitely look into his stuff. He's very smart but he does a good job at explaining complex topics to those who may not be in the medical field.

 

[trackstart12]

@dawn16 Seconding this. Peter is not afraid to get into the technical weeds but help guide you through them. Really worth the listening/reading time.

 

[dawn16]

@trackstart12 100% I first heard Peter on Joe Rogan maybe two or three years ago whenever he was on. Listening to Peter's podcast has definitely changed my life in a positive way and would recommend it to anyone.

 

[topekole]

@juancarlos I don't think kettlebell ballistics are all that great for longevity. Ballistic load is pretty risky and most kettlebells exercises use ballistics. It seems that many weight lifters/kettlebellers have transitioned to calisthenics in their later years. I've yet to see many original rkc people or strongfirst people who aren't nursing injuries. Pavel has injured elbows from his arm wrestling and older programs. Apparently he doesn't even lift anymore. I've lost allot of respect for Pavel because he never takes responsibility for his former programs or interacts with the community much anymore if at all. Dan John has hip replacements BUT he has a genetic deformity that caused him to need the replacements whether he lifted the weights he has or not. I have a huge amount of respect for Dan because he is always there and always available. Dan was also called to teach for StrongFirst because all of the elite StrongFirst people were too banged up too teach. Mark Reifkind has his knees replaced. Steve Maxwell says the kettlebell snatch has aggravated his shoulders and has recently said he doesn't even really recommend the kettlebell to clients anymore because of the ballistic and impact nature. Geoff Neupert had to repair himself with original strength and calisthenics. Even Brett Jones has a labrum tear and hip issues. Too many of these StrongFirst and RKCs need to repair themselves after following the systems for a long time period. That should be a hint. Strength training for longevity should be putting more into you and shouldn't require you to repair yourself after each session.

For longevity,

Slow and controlled strength movements
Walking
Joint Mobility
Active Flexibility

 

[dawn16]

@topekole It makes sense to me that pioneers of the field would have some wear and tear on their bodies.

These are people experimenting on themselves and other consenting guinea pigs.

I’ll take the purest distillation of a lifetime of research in the now if possible

 

[topekole]

@dawn16 Then the victim blaming of 'if you get hurt' you did something wrong. Or maybe it's just poor programming?

 

[topekole]

@dawn16 I get that. It's more so the fact that nobody takes responsibility or acknowledges that their former programs/programming may have caused people irreversible damage.

 

[dawn16]

@topekole They may or they did? Is there a lawsuit? A famous exemplar?

 

[moorelake7]

@topekole Steve Maxwell has terrible form on the kettlebell snatch. Seriously. Watch any instructional video of his, and watch the last 10% of his range in this movement. There’s a “hitch” at the end of the movement where he basically lets the bell crash into the end of his range of motion. He does not slow it to zero velocity using muscle or timing. His shoulder’s connective tissue has been used as a back-stop for who knows how many years.

Someone should have corrected this in his form by now. It’s sad, actually.

 

[topekole]

@moorelake7 This I will agree with. I was just watching his manmaker video on youtube and had to cringe on his form.

 

[juancarlos]

@topekole What are you basing these claims on? A lot of the so called original RKC people have trained a lot of things, and several had plenty of injuries from that part of their life. And several, like Mark, said that kettlebell training made life better. Claiming that kettlebells caused the issues that ended up needing surgery, is rather wrong, unless you actually know their medical history. Do you?

 

[topekole]

@juancarlos I've spent allot of money and time getting one on one conversations with most of the people mentioned and people who have been there. We discussed injuries, training philosophies, systems and why so many people seem to leave these organizations. It's not always due to money. I'm not saying that kettlebell training can't enhance some parts of a person's life, it's just that there's a strong survivorship bias going on with these programs. It's the lack of transparency and ownership that gets me the most. If you know for a fact that a program messed you up and a couple other 'master' instructors up, why would you still release it too the public with ridiculous adcopy? Let me end this by saying I am enjoying Pavels latest work but it's his lack of ownership of his past and lack of transparency that makes me uneasy. I like kettlebells and StrongFirst but people need to look through the rhetoric/groupthink. It took me allot of money, conversations and networking to find the truth. You have to speak with the people who have been there, done that and who aren't completely devoted to Pavel anymore.

 

[daxen]

@topekole Well, what Pavel programs should be avoided?

 

[topekole]

@daxen From what I've been told : Return of the Kettlebell, the Russian Kettlebell Challenge, Power to the People (Russian Bear Program) specifically, Enter the Kettlebell past the 32kg unless you're a very large/strong man. The simple and sinister program is good until the simple standard and then your start to get into dangerous territory. Which is funny because Pavel has never achieved the sinister goal himself. The majority of the issues come from Pavel's programs being based on lofty goals or impossible expectations. There's an issue of him printing unreachable goals in his programs to keep people infatuated with them for years. Look at Simple and Sinister, it's been out for 6 years and people are still discussing it because Pavel has been radio silent(other than releasing a 'revised' edition recently for more money).

It's about keeping your goals intrinsic and not reaching for ludicrous goals. Then when people don't reach these goals or get injured, it's not the authors fault, it's the fault of the consumer apparently.

 

[imgoingtogethisthingright]

@topekole What kind of programs are recommended in place of these? I've only done S&S, and some Strong As Hec programming

 

[kingvictor]

@topekole So should the “simple standard” be a reduced load to prevent injury, and the sinister not even bothered with?

 

[love4him1978]

@topekole How do you know Pavel hasn't reached the sinister goal himself? (not bashing what you've written, just curious)

 

[juancarlos]

@topekole Interesting. I would definitely like to know more about the circumstances about the training that lead to injuries.

Maybe it is different being outside RKC/SFG. Because what I read and hear from their training materials is about watching out for yourself, using common sense, using proper technique, good progressions to learn it. And Pavel's programs tend to get mocked for lack of volume.

People do get injured on all kinds of programs though. Take any program on /r/Fitness FAQ and somebody's injured themselves while on it. And yeah, I did injure myself when doing Pavel's Total Tension Complex, but that was a failure of mine as I messed up a clean. But not surgery bad. Though I suppose the structure of the program led me to the issue as I tried to make it work better and thus used a weight that was a bit too heavy for me. Had I done the program as written, and so failed to do it as my press strength was much worse than my squat strength, and just switched programs, I would have been fine.

I would welcome more transparency, I would welcome statistics about injuries with programs. All programs. Are Pavel's programs more injury prone than somebody else's? Can we even know? Who has safer programming that can be in some way verified?

I think a fact of life is that if you look hard into something, you will always find issues. And you have, looked, and found. If you spent the same amount of time and resources looking into some other organization, would it be better?