Made absolutely no progress in the past year when I had pretty much everything dialed in, starting to lose motivation..
- Thread starter wmsgil
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@junior59 If you look at attached MacroFactor data, you can see the lean bulk in action.
katiebug22
New member
@katiebug22 I have, and in fact when I first started lifting I was dirty perma bulking so I'm no stranger to that. It's just that the cut after the aggressive bulk is very painful and pretty much everyone recommends a lean bulk to not put on excess fat. I'm not sure if my lack of meaningful progress is due to the lean bulk or some other factors, if I knew it was from the lean bulk, then ofc I have no problem doing a more aggressive bulk
@wmsgil yeah I'd +1 the suggestion on a slightly larger surplus, but trends do look good.
I would agree with your assessment that there isn't a ton of visual progress, which isn't necessarily a bad thing given you appear to be in pretty good shape. If you wanted to just be "bigger" you probably will need to eat a bit more, otherwise just maintaining that current physique indefinitely seems like pretty solid success to me too
I would agree with your assessment that there isn't a ton of visual progress, which isn't necessarily a bad thing given you appear to be in pretty good shape. If you wanted to just be "bigger" you probably will need to eat a bit more, otherwise just maintaining that current physique indefinitely seems like pretty solid success to me too
@wmsgil I agree with ParticularExchange46 that you're changing your routine too much. And you mention just recently changing to a more bodybuilding style training style. I'm not familiar with all the programs you listed but from my experience just changing your lifting style, not even the program can have a huge impact on gains.
So my question is are you training with 3 second eccentrics? Chasing rep quality, not just weight progress? Focusing on MM connection? Using more stabilized lifts like leg press instead of squats? Choosing moments with a low stimulus to fatigue ratio? In order to look like an advanced lifter we need to train like we already are in order to move out of the late intermediate phase. These are all question advanced lifters consider and manage while programing.
I was stuck for a year like yourself when I was neglecting these questions and following programs others had built for me. Advanced level physiques come from understanding your needs, and building your own solutions, even if they seem contrary to popular solutions.
There's a fair amount of scientific evidence (and plenty of examples in pro bodybuilders) that sticking with exercises and programs for longer periods of time, up to 6-8 months can make all the difference. Dr. Mike and Jeff Albert's talk about this a lot and will keep big corner stone movements in place for years. I remember reading Albert's talk about his back training being almost entirely pull downs and chest supported rows for the last decade and he just placed 5th in worlds for example.
So my question is are you training with 3 second eccentrics? Chasing rep quality, not just weight progress? Focusing on MM connection? Using more stabilized lifts like leg press instead of squats? Choosing moments with a low stimulus to fatigue ratio? In order to look like an advanced lifter we need to train like we already are in order to move out of the late intermediate phase. These are all question advanced lifters consider and manage while programing.
I was stuck for a year like yourself when I was neglecting these questions and following programs others had built for me. Advanced level physiques come from understanding your needs, and building your own solutions, even if they seem contrary to popular solutions.
There's a fair amount of scientific evidence (and plenty of examples in pro bodybuilders) that sticking with exercises and programs for longer periods of time, up to 6-8 months can make all the difference. Dr. Mike and Jeff Albert's talk about this a lot and will keep big corner stone movements in place for years. I remember reading Albert's talk about his back training being almost entirely pull downs and chest supported rows for the last decade and he just placed 5th in worlds for example.
@wmsgil I think this is the correct answer. Your programming is a little all over the shop and I think you might benefit from building your own programme and sticking to it for a solid year or more. Being on something like GVS Ravage is a great start but start to build on it and select muscle areas that you actually want to work on.
Anecdotally I was in a similar position to you about a 1.5 years ago. I'd done a bunch of "hypertrophy" programslike 5/3/1 BBB, Deepwater, Building the Monolith and then lastly SBS Hypertrophy RTF. I looked pretty much exactly the same. It was only when I started to focus on purely Bodybuilding training thanks to youtube channels like Natural Hypertrophy, GVS, Basement Bodybuilding that I started to see noticeable gains again.
My key takeaway was to shift away from a Big 3 Strength orientated program to something more holistic. I now focus on these things, and it's served me well the last 6-8 months:
BTW You’re looking stacked bro. But hope you find more gains in the future.
Anecdotally I was in a similar position to you about a 1.5 years ago. I'd done a bunch of "hypertrophy" programslike 5/3/1 BBB, Deepwater, Building the Monolith and then lastly SBS Hypertrophy RTF. I looked pretty much exactly the same. It was only when I started to focus on purely Bodybuilding training thanks to youtube channels like Natural Hypertrophy, GVS, Basement Bodybuilding that I started to see noticeable gains again.
My key takeaway was to shift away from a Big 3 Strength orientated program to something more holistic. I now focus on these things, and it's served me well the last 6-8 months:
- Progression Scheme (this is the biggest). Make it simple again. Double Progression.
- Exercise selection. What's your focus? Deadlifts aren't going to build a big back, rows are. Low bar squats aren’t going to build quads, front squats are. Make sure you’re doing what’s needed for you.
- Training to failure. You said you already did 0-1 RIR so that’s that one sorted.
- Exercise Variety. Bench press, flies, DB bench, Incline Bench etc. Variety will avoid nagging injuries and target the muscles in different ways.
- No exercise is an accessory. Single arm cable curl is equally important as the Bench Press.
BTW You’re looking stacked bro. But hope you find more gains in the future.
@wmsgil well first off, you look great so keep that in mind if you're ever getting too harsh on yourself. besides that, i think this is just a classic case of staying too small. spending a year below 170 at 6' when you're already quite developed imo is not gonna be super productive in terms of making gains. if you wanna keep the shreds and stay lean, there's a trade off that comes with that. if you wanna make progress in gym and longer term physique, i would focus on improving your look at 175lbs or 185lbs, etc. At 6' 165, there's not gonna be much more muscle you can possibly add to the frame, and every time you cut down there it's not going to look significantly different, but your 190lbs frame (which is already quite solid), you can very likely add muscle and improve there.
so my suggestion if you want to see progress is to spend a couple years bulking to 200 or so, then stay around 185-200 and focus on improving your looks there. you'll get much stronger with that extra bodyweight, eating more (you cant expect to get strong at 6' eating 2000 cals a day), and it might keep the motivation going. if you like your physique as is and are ok with just looking great and not pursuing more progress and what you might have to do to achieve it - just maintain. you can do a lot less to maintain, you won't have to make sacrifices and you can ease up on the importance of the gym and likely look great for the forseeable future.
so my suggestion if you want to see progress is to spend a couple years bulking to 200 or so, then stay around 185-200 and focus on improving your looks there. you'll get much stronger with that extra bodyweight, eating more (you cant expect to get strong at 6' eating 2000 cals a day), and it might keep the motivation going. if you like your physique as is and are ok with just looking great and not pursuing more progress and what you might have to do to achieve it - just maintain. you can do a lot less to maintain, you won't have to make sacrifices and you can ease up on the importance of the gym and likely look great for the forseeable future.
@johnc101 I've always weighed in less than what people would think. Idk if doing a relative comparison like that is a good idea. If you just look in absolutes, judging from my physique at 158lbs, I was around 11-12% bf I'd say? That's not too crazy for an end of a cut/start of a bulk right?
Also when I was 190lbs, my face was insanely round and fat. It's not low self-esteem or whatever too (in fact at the time I thought I looked ok). When I show the pics of me at 190lbs to my friends they're all very shook, I literally look like a different person. I think I was around 25% bf back then.
Also when I was 190lbs, my face was insanely round and fat. It's not low self-esteem or whatever too (in fact at the time I thought I looked ok). When I show the pics of me at 190lbs to my friends they're all very shook, I literally look like a different person. I think I was around 25% bf back then.
@wmsgil yeah, i mean weight isn't everything, but at the same time you can only hold so much muscle on a 165lb frame at 6', even if you hold it well. you see this with competitive natty bodybuilders - they get on stage at similar bodyweights year after year and you'd need a nuanced eye to see their improvements, but if you look at their pics 10 weeks out and 20lbs more bodyweight, you can really tell they've made gains year over year. and yeah, your 158lbs is a good place to start bulk/end cut. fair enough if you don't enjoy your look at 190lbs but i wouldn't consider that 25% bf and im sure you filled out a shirt well and you had enough muscle there to look solid. imo 90% of natties look better at your 190lbs bodyfat levels than your 158 in basically every environment except shirtless. if your face looks fat/round, fair enough not the most enjoyable, and obviously this is all personal preferences, but it's a helpful mentality to have if you're trying to make gains.
honestly, and let me know if i'm off, but summing up your training history it looks like you made the vast majority of your progress on the way up to 190lbs and then stripped the fat off to a really nice physique. after that, seems like you've been going up and down 10-15lbs from lighter beginning/ending bodyweights than 190 trying to maintain the nice physique and yeah, not much change. i think that you did something that worked in your first few years of training and very likely getting to 190lbs was the major part of that - usually training quality, programming, diet, consistency, rep quality, adherence, etc. all improves with training age. only other obvious factor is beginner gains - but we can't replicate that. so, imo the logical thing would be to push that higher bodyweight again and see if that would start moving the needle. obviously i could be wrong, but i've personally had similar bodyfats to all your pics and the 190lbs pic (and higher bodyfats) is the only one where i've felt like i've had very productive training. 174/165/158, i'm either trying to do what i can to maintain on a cut, or trying to bulk past these levels so i can get back to productive training. we all have our preferences and respond differently, but either way, hope that gives you something to consider
honestly, and let me know if i'm off, but summing up your training history it looks like you made the vast majority of your progress on the way up to 190lbs and then stripped the fat off to a really nice physique. after that, seems like you've been going up and down 10-15lbs from lighter beginning/ending bodyweights than 190 trying to maintain the nice physique and yeah, not much change. i think that you did something that worked in your first few years of training and very likely getting to 190lbs was the major part of that - usually training quality, programming, diet, consistency, rep quality, adherence, etc. all improves with training age. only other obvious factor is beginner gains - but we can't replicate that. so, imo the logical thing would be to push that higher bodyweight again and see if that would start moving the needle. obviously i could be wrong, but i've personally had similar bodyfats to all your pics and the 190lbs pic (and higher bodyfats) is the only one where i've felt like i've had very productive training. 174/165/158, i'm either trying to do what i can to maintain on a cut, or trying to bulk past these levels so i can get back to productive training. we all have our preferences and respond differently, but either way, hope that gives you something to consider
@johnc101 Yea, perhaps I respond better with a more aggressive bulk, cut cycle. And yes after all the comments I think the consensus is that I need to put on more weight, which honestly I'm not afraid to do, so I'll give that a go. I'm just not sure whether I should continue my lean bulk, or do a more aggressive bulk. Everyone says a lean bulk is better and it makes sense, but it doesn't seem to be working well for me
@wmsgil hopefully to give you a little clarification - the bulk rate should be tied to your gym performance and rate of expected muscle growth. if you're an undersized beginner expecting to put on at least 1-2lbs of muscle a month on a program like GZCLP where you're putting 5/10lbs on the bar every workout - feel free to bulk quickly, which is probably what worked for you. as you get more advanced, you're expecting to get a lot less muscle gain, but the work you have to put in is much more - so bulking rate has to be balanced between knowing you're gonna get some fat if you bulk too hard, but if you don't bulk hard enough you're not going to be able to do enough in the gym to stimulate enough growth and then recover to be able to do this for 6 months. easiest approach is to tie it to your training - you should be doing everything you can to ensure there is progression in your training while in a surplus - and then how much your surplus is depends on how fast the progression is in your program and what you personally need to recover from that. all that being said, 1% bodyweight gain a month should cover most reasonable training approaches and i think that's about what you're at if i can tell from your macrofactor data.
what do you mean it isn't working well for you - like by comparing your bodyweight pics? the only relevant metric for bulking is if you are able to keep up with your training plan. if you are able to keep up with everything your training plan tells you to do - that's all that matters, and you're golden. the only optimization is figuring out the minimal amount of surplus that allows you to complete your workouts - as anything excess will be fat gain, but if you're overshooting, that's always better than not being able to keep up with your training. your macrofactor data looks good and your training plans are all solid enough so sorry if i sound like a broken record lol but i think whats not working well for you is not bulking to a high enough bodyweight and staying there for long enough, not your actual approach to bulking.
what do you mean it isn't working well for you - like by comparing your bodyweight pics? the only relevant metric for bulking is if you are able to keep up with your training plan. if you are able to keep up with everything your training plan tells you to do - that's all that matters, and you're golden. the only optimization is figuring out the minimal amount of surplus that allows you to complete your workouts - as anything excess will be fat gain, but if you're overshooting, that's always better than not being able to keep up with your training. your macrofactor data looks good and your training plans are all solid enough so sorry if i sound like a broken record lol but i think whats not working well for you is not bulking to a high enough bodyweight and staying there for long enough, not your actual approach to bulking.