This subreddit might as well be called /r/justdoS&S

icepac15

New member
It's tiresome to say the least that almost everyone who comes here is told to do S&S. Even people who can already lift weights proficiently and want to supplement other training are prescribed the same thing.

It's also patronising to insist someone follows a program. If a person wants to experiment with lifts and not commit to some sort of doctrine, why is that a bad thing?

Why would someone who can barbell hang snatch their bodyweight want to do a Turkish Get Up?
 
@icepac15
It's also patronising to insist someone follows a program. If a person wants to experiment with lifts and not commit to some sort of doctrine, why is that a bad thing?

If someone has the body awareness and experience to explore, then more power to them, but why would these people be asking for help? What help do you expect strangers over the internet to provide? No one understands your strengths and weaknesses, obviously, as well as you do.

These programs are designed by experienced individuals in the fitness world and are tried and true. This is why they are often recommended. Put simply : They work.

Why would someone who can barbell hang snatch their bodyweight want to do a Turkish Get Up?

The Turkish Get up is one of the greatest shoulder rehab/prehab exercises you can do.

In a less nice way : you are not a special snowflake. The program will help you like it helps everyone else who commits to it for a length of time.
 
@icepac15 Well, kettlebells aren't so very magical. If one would want to supplement their barbell training, then what's the thing that kettlebells could offer? Swings give you a useful explosive posterior chain exercise. KB is the best tool for those although you can swing DBs or T-bars or bowlingballs. Then TGUs: excellent stability exercise that works best with a KB. Sure, people do them with DBs and even barbells. So, we have the moves from S&S. It's hard to go wrong with these. Add some to your main program or on "rest days".

Anything else? We've various rather standard things like presses and squats. Don't know if KB press is any better than DB/BB. KB front squats are surprisingly hard compared to the weight, but probably not so special. Cleans? Dunno. Snatches? What do they actually give you other than having to produce more power to get the bell up and maybe a bit more back/bicep to keep the bell close. Okay, you have to stabilize up top. But maybe you can get these with something else too. Anyway--jerks? Good explosive move for which KB is probably better than DB but barbells may be best.

Bent press, wind mill? Stepping swings? Bottom up presses? Figure 8? Renegade row? Juggling? High pulls? Who knows whether any of these would be especially useful to a person. It depends. And the person should know what their sport needs. And google does help finding those who have tried to combine kettlebells with a specific sport.
 
@icepac15 It's not the fact that everyone is prescribing S&S. It's that there is no user generated content on this sub. People will boast post and it's just text no video link. There's always "why do I have headaches after swings?" or "why does my back hurt after swings?" I could go on but there's no goddamn video to go with it so there can be a form assessment. I rarely come to this sub and I primarily lift kettlebells. The critique my routine posts drive me nuts too, let's see the fucking routine.
 
@icepac15 Because we are giving people good advice on how to do this safely and make measurable progress?

And if you need people to review your special program on internet when you do not know what you are doing just go and follow a real program instead, unique is generally wrong
 
@icepac15 Answer first, what is your goal?

Most good programs out there follow the same patterns:

-Get good (strong) at compound lifts, you only need a few. (think Barbell bench, squat and deadlift). Most people are beginners. Advanced (strong) people follow their coach or they'll figure out what's best for themselves.

-Follow it for a set amount of time (see above).

S&S why's
  1. S&S can be done twice a week if you want to do other things (barbells, bodyweight etc.)
  2. The idea is simple, advance to the "Simple Goals" within the program so you get a good base. Your form is solid, your technique is great so you don't injure yourself. Do you want to do high-rep programs with light weights, metabolic conditioning, circuits or use heavier bells. Again, what's the goal here?
  3. Things like GS training is no doubt good. But it is also more specific. A program that consists of just something similar to the Long Cycle is probably also enough to meet many peoples goals. S&S helps you prepare for it.
  4. Reading forums for a few years have made me realize (and own experience tells me) that jumping from program to program is inferior compared to a tested program made by professionals. To quote Pavel: "Would you buy a Harley or a customized bike made by lawn-mower parts?"
  5. Specifically about the Get up part: you're comparing apples and oranges. GU's are meant to prepare you for other stuff(it's also a very good lift for the entire body, my personal favourite). It also builds strength, tho not comparable to, say, a heavy bench.
More things should be said, but we are just repeating the same chant here. If your opinion is different then that's fine with me.
In the end, experience, commitment and consistency determines whether you succeed with whatever you wish to do. Do it or don't, that's up to you.

If you want new ideas or program routines that you can customize yourself then I suggest you head over to www.rosstraining.com and get your hands on a copy of Infinite Intensity, money well spent but not kettlebell specific.
 
@icepac15 There are only so much excercises you can do with a kettlebell. Jerks, snatches, swings,TGU, and windmills. So I doubt we will ever see some radical departure from S&S.
 
@dawn16
Jerks, snatches, swings,TGU, and windmill

I don't think S&S includes any jerks or snatches, or any kind of shoulder press, I'm sure it doesn't include windmills. I read over it once, it was too simple for my taste, it didn't seem like a program for complete development.

Just a few days ago, someone posted some new kettlebell exercises, standing with feet staggered, swinging a light kettlebell, and shuffling the feet like a boxer at the top of the swing. Everybody dissed it, nobody tried the movement or cited a knowledgeable source that recommended against it. I didn't try it, it didn't look like it filled any gap in my program, but it looked like a good exercise for a fighter.
 
@jim35215 S&S is just swings and TGUs (and goblet squats, halos and hip bridges). And it is not a program for complete development, not even trying to be.

It's pretty hard to evaluate "custom" compound exercises. Possible dangers may be easier to spot but actual usefulness is quite muddy as you'd need to be able to compare and custom things usually try to target something. Definitely it's not very nice to just diss without consideration.
 
@jim35215 No it doesn't include those excercises, I read the book twice. I was just saying that Kettlebells are essentially a tool with a limited set of uses. It's basically for strength endurance (IMO). I don't see anyone in the fitness industry doing anything revolutionary with it, and when someone does come up with something revolutionary it will be great.

It's all basically RKC...
 
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