4 years of hard work
- Thread starter silsophi
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- natural bodybuilding
earnest1018
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askinghonestly
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kimberllyydawnn
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estherrising
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thisisthexfiles
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totocaca22
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jefftucker
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@cmclinton Can confirm, on a cut and have severe body dysmorphia.
fallenandredeemed
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kimberllyydawnn
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intotheforge
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lovely_krystal86
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@silsophi I have had the exact same thoughts, frequently. We are in the same boat. I know that voice inside your head, and the wasted time researching steroid side effects, etc. I'll provide an alternative to that voice, coming from a medical background. I'm gonna make a few assumptions that you are in your early - mid 20s and dont have any children.
Your hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is surpassed like hell after exogenous anabolic steroid use. This means after you finish a cycle, even with post cycle therapy, it takes usually at least 3-6 months for testosterone to restore to normal. During those 3-6 months, you will lose everything you gained - your body no longer has the hormonal infrastructure to support that muscle. So either it will be pointless, and you potentially get permanent side effects just to look huge for 4 weeks, it won't be just one cycle. Thats why people keep going. they try to come off and they feel like shit, they train like shit, everything goes backwards, and after a period of adding like 10kg to your bench per week, its hard to face that. So they get back on, even if they say its just "to bring myself up to normal levels". This means you're still suppressing your HPA axis though, and the longer you do that, the more damage you accumulate. Infertility, etc. you've heard it all before.
So, you either accept you're getting on the gear for more than one cycle, or you do one cycle just to end up where you started, maybe best case scenario you are slightly more jacked but realistically you could have achieved that naturally in the 3-6 months it took for you to recover.
Alright, so say you think fuck it, lets get on the gear for like 4 or 5 cycles. Surely thats not too bad? The longer you use, the longer it takes to recover, and you will always lose a significant amount when you come off. Plus the side effects continue to worsen this whole time.
Are you at college/university? Are you studying? Do you have a job? these are complex mental tasks and quite difficult for anyone. The mental fog and mood disturbances of gear is going to make that very difficult.
Do you have a girlfriend? Do you live with your family? Is the roid rage and proneness to anger and violence going to improve those relationships? Will they support you picking up a drug habit? Would you want your son to start injecting needles into himself? In 40 years, will you look back at the period of your life and think "I am glad I did that"? In 40 years, when you have erectile dysfunction, or a heart problem, or liver problems, you are going to wonder if the gear did that, or if you still would have gotten it regardless. If you're natural, there is no doubt, no regret, and frankly, less risk in the first place.
You do a lot of cardio still - sounds like you enjoy it. Me too! However, cardio put anabolic stress on the heart. This is good for natural athletes. Non-maladaptive athletic hypertrophy of the heart is great. However, even in naturals, there is a U shaped curve, where their hearts get too big and they can start to get problems like heart failure, arrhythmia, and ischaemic heart disease as the muscle is so thick the vessels cant perfuse it. When you do cardio on anabolic steroids, your heart grows at the same rapid pace as your other muscles. You speed run heart failure and cardiac issues. If you dont do cardio on steroids, you get coronary artery disease and blood clots. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Also, lets put it in perspective. When you are 35 and probably trying to start a family, probably married with a wife who loves you for more than what you look like, and youre not trying to sleep with other women... are you going to be glad you are now at so much higher risk of all these health complications cause you used steroids in your early-mid twenties? I would wager at that point it doesnt matter to you as much. this seems to be the trend I see on a lot of youtube videos of guys turning 29, 30, 31, saying "I wish I didnt hop on gear in my 20s. I was an idiot. I am now training for a marathon/martial arts/cycling, I've left bodybuilding behind, health is more important" How you look will probably still be important to you, but not so much you want to use steroids. You will have other priorities.
Lets bring it back. Say you do just one cycle regardless. It is still a lot of work. There are multiple injections (not just one compound) you have to do and be organised for, plus post cycle therapy, all the research required to do it safely. You have to be doing bloodwork, which involves the shame of admitting to your GP/regular doctor that you have now started using steroids, and then listening to them tell you all the risks and advising you to stop doing it. Then there is obtaining the drugs in the first place (which is also illegal and will be a problem if you are caught), plus the complete loss of spontaneity and ability to travel. How are you going to smuggle your steroids on a plane if your family or girlfriend or mates invite you on a holiday? "Sorry guys, Im in the middle of a steroid cycle right now, cant go." Or, you do go, and get caught by TSA. So you are going to dedicate everything in your life to optimise this one cycle.
It sounds like you're prone to anxiety/mental health troubles already with the body dysmorphia. The steroids will NOT help. They exacerbate mood issues. The most chilled out dudes you've ever met develop anxiety and depression on steroids. If you have troubles in the first place, does this sound like its a good idea for your mental health?
The idea of those Tiktok tren idiots walking around having women throw themselves at them is fucking infuriating. They dont put anywhere near the amount of effort and research and thought into their training as you. But they will one day be 30-40 year old has-beens, just like you. Unlike you, they will be dealing with the health consequences of their idiotic teen/early 20s selves.
I'll be honest, this was written as much to convince myself as it was to convince you. But it sounds like you're a smart guy. I think there's more to your life than bodybuilding. Lets keep it in perspective. Plus, I've seen your photos, I think you look fucking great. I wish I had arms that size. I wish I could bench 120kg man. Anyone who sees you will know you lift and are strong. Past that point, nobody gives a shit. Its all in your own head. Nobody except other men will ever ask you your lifting numbers. The only obstacle is your own standards which have been artificially imposed on you by an alrogirthm designed to invent, prey on, and profit from insecurities and weaknesses, feeding a never ending cycle of drug abuse that makes others feel inadequate, driving them to drug abuse, etc. Remember being a kid before you cared about this stuff? What would he say about getting on drugs? What would you say to your own son? Personally, I would just want my kid to be happy and love himself the way he is. I think you would too. You are no less deserving than your hypothetical son.
Your hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is surpassed like hell after exogenous anabolic steroid use. This means after you finish a cycle, even with post cycle therapy, it takes usually at least 3-6 months for testosterone to restore to normal. During those 3-6 months, you will lose everything you gained - your body no longer has the hormonal infrastructure to support that muscle. So either it will be pointless, and you potentially get permanent side effects just to look huge for 4 weeks, it won't be just one cycle. Thats why people keep going. they try to come off and they feel like shit, they train like shit, everything goes backwards, and after a period of adding like 10kg to your bench per week, its hard to face that. So they get back on, even if they say its just "to bring myself up to normal levels". This means you're still suppressing your HPA axis though, and the longer you do that, the more damage you accumulate. Infertility, etc. you've heard it all before.
So, you either accept you're getting on the gear for more than one cycle, or you do one cycle just to end up where you started, maybe best case scenario you are slightly more jacked but realistically you could have achieved that naturally in the 3-6 months it took for you to recover.
Alright, so say you think fuck it, lets get on the gear for like 4 or 5 cycles. Surely thats not too bad? The longer you use, the longer it takes to recover, and you will always lose a significant amount when you come off. Plus the side effects continue to worsen this whole time.
Are you at college/university? Are you studying? Do you have a job? these are complex mental tasks and quite difficult for anyone. The mental fog and mood disturbances of gear is going to make that very difficult.
Do you have a girlfriend? Do you live with your family? Is the roid rage and proneness to anger and violence going to improve those relationships? Will they support you picking up a drug habit? Would you want your son to start injecting needles into himself? In 40 years, will you look back at the period of your life and think "I am glad I did that"? In 40 years, when you have erectile dysfunction, or a heart problem, or liver problems, you are going to wonder if the gear did that, or if you still would have gotten it regardless. If you're natural, there is no doubt, no regret, and frankly, less risk in the first place.
You do a lot of cardio still - sounds like you enjoy it. Me too! However, cardio put anabolic stress on the heart. This is good for natural athletes. Non-maladaptive athletic hypertrophy of the heart is great. However, even in naturals, there is a U shaped curve, where their hearts get too big and they can start to get problems like heart failure, arrhythmia, and ischaemic heart disease as the muscle is so thick the vessels cant perfuse it. When you do cardio on anabolic steroids, your heart grows at the same rapid pace as your other muscles. You speed run heart failure and cardiac issues. If you dont do cardio on steroids, you get coronary artery disease and blood clots. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Also, lets put it in perspective. When you are 35 and probably trying to start a family, probably married with a wife who loves you for more than what you look like, and youre not trying to sleep with other women... are you going to be glad you are now at so much higher risk of all these health complications cause you used steroids in your early-mid twenties? I would wager at that point it doesnt matter to you as much. this seems to be the trend I see on a lot of youtube videos of guys turning 29, 30, 31, saying "I wish I didnt hop on gear in my 20s. I was an idiot. I am now training for a marathon/martial arts/cycling, I've left bodybuilding behind, health is more important" How you look will probably still be important to you, but not so much you want to use steroids. You will have other priorities.
Lets bring it back. Say you do just one cycle regardless. It is still a lot of work. There are multiple injections (not just one compound) you have to do and be organised for, plus post cycle therapy, all the research required to do it safely. You have to be doing bloodwork, which involves the shame of admitting to your GP/regular doctor that you have now started using steroids, and then listening to them tell you all the risks and advising you to stop doing it. Then there is obtaining the drugs in the first place (which is also illegal and will be a problem if you are caught), plus the complete loss of spontaneity and ability to travel. How are you going to smuggle your steroids on a plane if your family or girlfriend or mates invite you on a holiday? "Sorry guys, Im in the middle of a steroid cycle right now, cant go." Or, you do go, and get caught by TSA. So you are going to dedicate everything in your life to optimise this one cycle.
It sounds like you're prone to anxiety/mental health troubles already with the body dysmorphia. The steroids will NOT help. They exacerbate mood issues. The most chilled out dudes you've ever met develop anxiety and depression on steroids. If you have troubles in the first place, does this sound like its a good idea for your mental health?
The idea of those Tiktok tren idiots walking around having women throw themselves at them is fucking infuriating. They dont put anywhere near the amount of effort and research and thought into their training as you. But they will one day be 30-40 year old has-beens, just like you. Unlike you, they will be dealing with the health consequences of their idiotic teen/early 20s selves.
I'll be honest, this was written as much to convince myself as it was to convince you. But it sounds like you're a smart guy. I think there's more to your life than bodybuilding. Lets keep it in perspective. Plus, I've seen your photos, I think you look fucking great. I wish I had arms that size. I wish I could bench 120kg man. Anyone who sees you will know you lift and are strong. Past that point, nobody gives a shit. Its all in your own head. Nobody except other men will ever ask you your lifting numbers. The only obstacle is your own standards which have been artificially imposed on you by an alrogirthm designed to invent, prey on, and profit from insecurities and weaknesses, feeding a never ending cycle of drug abuse that makes others feel inadequate, driving them to drug abuse, etc. Remember being a kid before you cared about this stuff? What would he say about getting on drugs? What would you say to your own son? Personally, I would just want my kid to be happy and love himself the way he is. I think you would too. You are no less deserving than your hypothetical son.
@lovely_krystal86 Wish I could upvote 10x, great reply!
@lovely_krystal86 I completely agree with pretty much everything you said and I've had the same exact thoughts.
But one thing I'd like to add - of course it's anecdotal and not purely scientific. One of my childhood friends has done steroids twice in his life, once at 17, and again at 26. He has great genetics, but the worst lifestyle habits out of anyone I know. His diet consists of delivery food and ice cream. He's a dev so he sits all day, never does any cardio. His gym going habits are sporadic, maybe twice to three times a week.
Despite that, during both cycles, the man was a fucking BEAST. I mean, like 100kg (225lbs) of pure muscle.
After ending the cycles - he got fucked up exactly how you mentioned, both times. Lost his job. Lost his gf. Went into a depression. Wouldn't get out of bed for about 2-3 months til his hormones stabilized.
However, after all was said and done, and although he lost 30KG of muscle tissue, his strength is still absurdly insane. I mean the guy casually deadlifted 4 plates, at 75KG bodyweight, without training and eating ice cream and being off-cycle.
Basically what I'm getting at, although his hormones and body recovered from the steroid use - his strength and potential muscle growth remains much much higher than a life-time natty. I don't know exactly why steroid use causes that, but I'm pretty sure it's a thing.
A lot of guys who used to do gear in HS, cleaned up, went the "natty" way, are able to progress way further it seems like.
But one thing I'd like to add - of course it's anecdotal and not purely scientific. One of my childhood friends has done steroids twice in his life, once at 17, and again at 26. He has great genetics, but the worst lifestyle habits out of anyone I know. His diet consists of delivery food and ice cream. He's a dev so he sits all day, never does any cardio. His gym going habits are sporadic, maybe twice to three times a week.
Despite that, during both cycles, the man was a fucking BEAST. I mean, like 100kg (225lbs) of pure muscle.
After ending the cycles - he got fucked up exactly how you mentioned, both times. Lost his job. Lost his gf. Went into a depression. Wouldn't get out of bed for about 2-3 months til his hormones stabilized.
However, after all was said and done, and although he lost 30KG of muscle tissue, his strength is still absurdly insane. I mean the guy casually deadlifted 4 plates, at 75KG bodyweight, without training and eating ice cream and being off-cycle.
Basically what I'm getting at, although his hormones and body recovered from the steroid use - his strength and potential muscle growth remains much much higher than a life-time natty. I don't know exactly why steroid use causes that, but I'm pretty sure it's a thing.
A lot of guys who used to do gear in HS, cleaned up, went the "natty" way, are able to progress way further it seems like.
lovely_krystal86
New member
@silsophi You’re right. Steroid use permanently increases muscle strength and growth potential by increasing the number and density of cell organelles. Their natty potential is increased vastly and ability to regain the muscle is also increased. It’s one of the reasons I believe that any positive steroid drug test in any professional sport should not be a temporary suspension, but a lifetime ban. Once you give up natty card you forever are changed and have a supra-physiological advantage.
In any case man - if you look at your friend now, was it worth it? Sounds like a miserable life. He lost all 30kg of his gains, lost his job and girlfriend, and maybe has an above average deadlift to show for it. What for? So he looked super buff for a few months at 17 and 26? Does that matter in the grand scheme? Would you trade lives?
Stay strong man.
In any case man - if you look at your friend now, was it worth it? Sounds like a miserable life. He lost all 30kg of his gains, lost his job and girlfriend, and maybe has an above average deadlift to show for it. What for? So he looked super buff for a few months at 17 and 26? Does that matter in the grand scheme? Would you trade lives?
Stay strong man.
alwaysbethinkin
New member
@silsophi In the comments you mention your starting point was 49kg severely underweight. I feel like that is more important than you think.
That means in 4 years you've gone from having basically no muscle development to being above average, nothing crazy but still better than the vast majority of people.
The average person starts with an average amount of development, even if you've both been training for the same amount of time you probably had to gain 5kg - 15kg of lean mass just to get to where they started.
It also means you're further from your potential limit and can probably continue making progress at a rate further than other advanced lifters.
That means in 4 years you've gone from having basically no muscle development to being above average, nothing crazy but still better than the vast majority of people.
The average person starts with an average amount of development, even if you've both been training for the same amount of time you probably had to gain 5kg - 15kg of lean mass just to get to where they started.
It also means you're further from your potential limit and can probably continue making progress at a rate further than other advanced lifters.
@silsophi Obviously not everyone was born to look like a Mr. Olympia caliber bodybuilder, but usually when people plateau a couple years into lifting despite seemingly having all their variables locked down it comes down to a couple of things:
I don’t think gear is ever the answer unless you have competitive goals that require using them.
If you’re medically hypogonadal that’s a different story, and it may be worth having a comprehensive hormone panel done to see what sex hormones and other health markers look like. You will have to buy a private test done to get a full comprehensive panel, as your insurance will not pay for it.
- Really ask yourself if you’re training hard enough. Are you pushing every set of every movement to failure, or very close to it? If someone held a gun to your head during your most recent set of squats or leg press, how many more reps could you have pushed for?
- Audit your diet closely. Are you still adhering to your cals/macros on the weekend? Or are you allowing 1-2 days a week to go completely untracked?
- What is your stress level like? Are you constantly dealing with work or family/relationship stress that goes unmanaged? These things can have very real consequences on your physique.
I don’t think gear is ever the answer unless you have competitive goals that require using them.
If you’re medically hypogonadal that’s a different story, and it may be worth having a comprehensive hormone panel done to see what sex hormones and other health markers look like. You will have to buy a private test done to get a full comprehensive panel, as your insurance will not pay for it.
@kvolm I don't think my genetics are bad. Pretty normal for my area. Slightly above average height (183cm), most of the men in my family have been muscular even without training.
I should mention - I had a much much worse starting point than most people. Currently in my largest bulk I am 88kg with somewhere between 20-24% BF. I had started at 49kg, so I had NO muscle on me and was extremely underweight.
As far as pushing to the limit goes, well I try, don't we all? I can't say with 100% certainity that I push every set as if I will die. I try to get 1 or 2 of those kind of sets in per workout, but everyone knows it's insanely hard and difficult to push yourself that far every set, every day. I probably most often stop at around 95% of what true failure would be on machines. If it's a compound movement, I probably stop at 90% because I'm not about to slam or drop 120kg of weight on myself.
I also have found that when I do push to a real 100% failure, the form starts breaking before that point and a form of "cheating" occurs, this happens to everyone and is very injury prone so I try to avoid it by getting to the point RIGHT before that point. Since you can always continue doing a movement even "past" failure by adjusting the movement, it's hard to gauge what's really the last full rep and what's not.
I should mention - I had a much much worse starting point than most people. Currently in my largest bulk I am 88kg with somewhere between 20-24% BF. I had started at 49kg, so I had NO muscle on me and was extremely underweight.
As far as pushing to the limit goes, well I try, don't we all? I can't say with 100% certainity that I push every set as if I will die. I try to get 1 or 2 of those kind of sets in per workout, but everyone knows it's insanely hard and difficult to push yourself that far every set, every day. I probably most often stop at around 95% of what true failure would be on machines. If it's a compound movement, I probably stop at 90% because I'm not about to slam or drop 120kg of weight on myself.
I also have found that when I do push to a real 100% failure, the form starts breaking before that point and a form of "cheating" occurs, this happens to everyone and is very injury prone so I try to avoid it by getting to the point RIGHT before that point. Since you can always continue doing a movement even "past" failure by adjusting the movement, it's hard to gauge what's really the last full rep and what's not.